everytime 1% of me wavers on the death penalty

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

The next time I kill someone, I want you for my attorney.

The next time? (yikes!)

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

The next time? (yikes!)

il Padrino is Italian for The Godfather.

[Archaea]

I'm not certain what the option is.

A fair trial is essential, and many poor were given bad representation. However, because ensuring a fair application is difficult doesn't mean it's impossible and shouldn't be a goal.

SU is speculating whether innocents have been executed. I know of none but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

OTOH, I don't see why a society should have to shoulder a convict for the rest of that person's life.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Like I said, most the folks who believe in the death penalty don't believe in fair trials in their hearts.

I understand you have good reasons for opposing the death penalty, SU. What you are saying here though just isn't true. I will acknowledge there are a fair number of folks out there who think that guilt is an opinion formed in their minds or in the press rather than the specific result of a deliberative process. However, I don't think anyone wants to see an innocent executed. You and I know that demonizing the adversary makes it easier to not deal with what he is saying, but it is also a mistake. This would be like saying that death penalty opponents don't really want to see murderers punished. Obviously this is not so.

While your point is well taken that our processes used to be much less fair, I think you are sort of fighting with ghosts there. In our current system people get so many bites at the apple that the person who gets executed bears little resemblence to the person who committed the crime. No one can say that there is a rush to judgment today.

If there are any battles left to be fought on this front, I would say it is in making sure that defense counsel appointed to defend many of these cases are adequately compensated so that you don't have the bottom of the barrell working a a death penalty case.

Still, I think in the end this is a moral question more than anything else. The process we use is not perfect, but it is fair.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I understand you have good reasons for opposing the death penalty, SU. What you are saying here though just isn't true. I will acknowledge there are a fair number of folks out there who think that guilt is an opinion formed in their minds or in the press rather than the specific result of a deliberative process. However, I don't think anyone wants to see an innocent executed. You and I know that demonizing the adversary makes it easier to not deal with what he is saying, but it is also a mistake. This would be like saying that death penalty opponents don't really want to see murderers punished. Obviously this is not so.

While your point is well taken that our processes used to be much less fair, I think you are sort of fighting with ghosts there. In our current system people get so many bites at the apple that the person who gets executed bears little resemblence to the person who committed the crime. No one can say that there is a rush to judgment today.

If there are any battles left to be fought on this front, I would say it is in making sure that defense counsel appointed to defend many of these cases are adequately compensated so that you don't have the bottom of the barrell working a a death penalty case.

Still, I think in the end this is a moral question more than anything else. The process we use is not perfect, but it is fair.

My statement was a little reckless but I submit the sentiment expressed by Il Padrino--the newspapers say these guys were terrorists so who cares if they got a fair trial?--is common. Even worse, is Balboa who says, "You want them to have a fair trial, you're in bed with ruthless dictators." Taken to its logical conclusion this attitude makes a mockery of any serious system of civil liberties. People who think that way are usually among those who favor the death penalty. What they are doing is taking civil liberties for granted in a world where overall civil liberties have been the exception not the rule.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

My statement was a little reckless but I submit the sentiment expressed by Il Padrino--the newspapers say these guys were terrorists so who cares if they got a fair trial?--is common. Even worse, is Balboa who says, "You want them to have a fair trial, you're in bed with ruthless dictators." Taken to its logical conclusion this attitude makes a mockery of any serious system of civil liberties. People who think that way are usually among those who favor the death penalty. What they are doing is taking civil liberties for granted in a world where overall civil liberties have been the exception not the rule.

No, the newspapers don't need to tell me that they are terrorists. Their behavior and actions over the years tell me they are terrorists.

I challenge you to tell the families of any or all of their victims that they didn't get a fair trial.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

No, the newspapers don't need to tell me that they are terrorists. Their behavior and actions over the years tell me they are terrorists.

I challenge you to tell the families of any or all of their victims that they didn't get a fair trial.

I know that this is a death penalty thread, but since it has gooten twisted into a little Iraq, I have got to quibble with the application of the death penalty of Saddam and co.

Whether e deserved it or not Saddam's execution is almost certainly a bad thing, especially now. The way in which it was carried out, the expediency, and the attendant circumstances all serve to undermine the claims of the Maliki government to legitimacy in the respect that it comes off as a sectarian lynching rather than the sober administration of justice one might expect from a mature judicial process.

This only serves to reinforce the notion of the Sunni minority that a new Iraq, where political and judicial processes serve primarily as a means of pushing a political agenda and reinforcing the sanctity of the regime. The wider spread that this perception is the less likely Sunni's or even Kurds are likely to buy into the democratic processes and institutions that must be erected post haste in order for us to truly say mission accomplished.

To me, the stoogeish interpretation of the death penalty by the Iraqi's is illustrative of the difficulties in application that make it unpalatable from a practical point of view, whatever a person's moral views on the sanctity of all human life. The administration is of the penalty is arbitrary, and when looking at the statistics of the application of the death penalty it is hard to escape the conclusion that it is applied without regard to fairness, and that the institutions charged with its governance do not function in equality.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I am against capital punishment. You may recall that post I made on CB that generated almost an entire page of responses. It wasn't exactly the height of my popularity...

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I am against capital punishment. You may recall that post I made on CB that generated almost an entire page of responses. It wasn't exactly the height of my popularity...

People have died so that you could express your opinion.

People will die confirming mine.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

People have died so that you could express your opinion.

People will die confirming mine.

Add a few typos and this is a perfect imitation of the old inocuous grapevine. Now Waters not only trolls his own board he triples as the board jester. We get our money's worth, that's for sure.