The "Great Apostacy" problem

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by stonewallperry

That's possible...what exactly is your usage of cult suppose to mean here? In our society, there's certainly a very negative connotation attached to anything called a cult.

cult: n. 1. A system of rligious rites and observances. 2. Zealous devotion to a person, ideal, or thing.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

The idea that the world was void of light, and knowledge and advancement, during 120 A.D. to 1820 A.D. is a false idea perpetuated by mormon myth. It isn't grounded in reality, and isn't a prevailing thought among mormonism. Certain works paint the world entirely in unbelief, disarray, and certain levels of regression. But, the idea that the world was void of authority from God, aka, the priesthood, is in essence the true 'great apostasy.'

Mormon myth? Uhhhmmmm it's not Mormom myth but rather a western societal myth -if it is indeed a myth lol!

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by All-American

Really? Let's look again at what SeattleUte said:




(Never mind, I found it this time.)

I did read it, but thanks anyway.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

This is Klingon/English again. Some would argue that this fact, and it is, however characterised, a fact, is very faith promoting.

I agree with you. You see, I'm an unusual sort of Christian. I believe (sorry to offend anyone, but this is my belief), that the biography of Christ in the Gospels is mythology. But the fact that the myth itself is so powerful is to me faith promoting. Does that make me a Christian? Not in the conventional sense. But I think I am because I believe the myth itself is sacred, and powerful.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

Apart from the subtle attempt to undermine my position's cresdibility by calling it 'klingon' I am not too sure there is much here I disagree with. the difference between us devolves into a simple question of faith. We each consider the other's glass to be dark and smoky even though we are both seeing pretty much the same image.

Your last post is a little difficult to discuss becaseu the period of time you are refernceing appears to shift in the message. An exemplar of a response might be, hoewever, that my 'klingon' considers chrisitian churches of certain time periods to be degenreate not becasue they were primarily or even partially evil, but becasue they lacked truth needed for exaltation (e.g. priesthood). I understand you to say that they weren't necessarily degenerate but for other reasons. I can live with this and fail to see how my belief means that I have 'written off' philospohy or relgious thought for any period of time, let alone for the 2000 years in the post that you referenced that started this thread.

Nothing about my belief makes me fail to appreciate any of the advances or schools of thought that developed in the dark ages, the enlightenment or at any other time, it just menas that for myself I believe and manifest faith in the ideas presented by the LDS church. You obviously reject those beliefs, which I can also live with (just becasue I know eventually we'll get you back ;-)), but with your unwillingness to assume the veracity of my premise, even in arguendo, you and I will simply never agree here. The apostacy is, for me a failure of faith which I see evidecned in numerous ways. You obviously disagree. SO be it.

As a post script let me just add that whatever truth por goodness was found in what was at the time (about 200 a.d. to 1300 or 1400 a.d.) THE church in western europe was very difficult to find in practice. It was a brutish lot that ran things then and, usually (although not always but certainly ironically) the closer one got to Rome the worse it became.

To me Talmage's viewpoint obscures the enormous hand Christianity played in shaping our culture, and Mormons' failure to appreciate that (with the exception of an elite few such as yourself who can perform the mental gymnastics) is in a real way tragic.

[Zulu451]

Originally Posted by Robin

My problem with the apostacy is this --

When most LDS persons read a work of philosophy or journal of ideas or one's 'experiments with truth,' there is usually little chance that all of that collective experience will make any lasting mark. The thought process usually goes something like this, "Well that was interesting. He obviously had some of the light of Christ. I wonder what he would have done with the fulness of the gospel? I bet he has accepted his proxy baptism."

In other words the image of the apostacy poses this huge obstacle, depriving most LDS from mining collective human experience for truth, and primarily relegating all of those lives, and all of that thought, and all of that collective pain and struggle to the dust bins of a trivial pursuit box (or Jeopardy?).

I know this isn't categorically true, so I apologize in advance to the many good folks on this board who do not fit this description.

For some people this may be unfortunately true. The notion that during the period of the apostasy the world was devoid of the influence of the Holy Ghost is completely wrong, the BOM states otherwise in Nephi's vision of Columbus comming to America. This is more than "light of Christ". On numerous occaisions in General Conference, the actions of Martin Luther have been referenced to as inspired. Neal A. Maxwell (one of the most amazing orators I have ever heard) in particular. The Lord knew what he was doing and many of the great minds of this time were inspired.

I see the apostasy as a time of "reformation", though not specifically speaking of THE reformation movements. The Lord had to set forth the conditions in the world in general for the restoration, this was brought about by all of the happenings during these 2000 years. I can look at the contributions of the reformation and renissance for what they are, glean knowledge and insight, especially with the forknowlege that these were indeed inspired individuals.

What the gospel gives me is the understanding that these people will have the opportunity to partake in the full blessings that the gospel of Jesus Christ has to offer them. This statement in no wise denegrates what they did, it only serves as a defense mechanism against the thought that somehow they are consigned to a fate based soley on when they were born, regardless of how their actions set the stage for the restoration. (Most born againers today would just flat out condem all of these guys to hell, as they were Catholics and had not accepted the Jesus Christ of the NT.)

Robin, what it sounds like to me is that you don't like the fact that others who don't get it like you do really frustrates you. I can probably lump myself into that group, as you guys are better read and "get it" more than I.

Just my 2 bits. I will go back to chewing hay, mending fences and painting my double wide...

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I agree with you. You see, I'm an unusual sort of Christian. I believe (sorry to offend anyone, but this is my belief), that the biography of Christ in the Gospels is mythology. But the fact that the myth itself is so powerful is to me faith promoting. Does that make me a Christian? Not in the conventional sense. But I think I am because I believe the myth itself is sacred, and powerful.

No, it doesn't even make you a Christian in an unconventional sense either.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

No, it doesn't even make you a Christian in an unconventional sense either.

Aren't we the ones who get upset when others don't let us consider ourselves Christians?

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Zulu451

For some people this may be unfortunately true. The notion that during the period of the apostasy the world was devoid of the influence of the Holy Ghost is completely wrong, the BOM states otherwise in Nephi's vision of Columbus comming to America. This is more than "light of Christ". On numerous occaisions in General Conference, the actions of Martin Luther have been referenced to as inspired. Neal A. Maxwell (one of the most amazing orators I have ever heard) in particular. The Lord knew what he was doing and many of the great minds of this time were inspired.

I see the apostasy as a time of "reformation", though not specifically speaking of THE reformation movements. The Lord had to set forth the conditions in the world in general for the restoration, this was brought about by all of the happenings during these 2000 years. I can look at the contributions of the reformation and renissance for what they are, glean knowledge and insight, especially with the forknowlege that these were indeed inspired individuals.

What the gospel gives me is the understanding that these people will have the opportunity to partake in the full blessings that the gospel of Jesus Christ has to offer them. This statement in no wise denegrates what they did, it only serves as a defense mechanism against the thought that somehow they are consigned to a fate based soley on when they were born, regardless of how their actions set the stage for the restoration. (Most born againers today would just flat out condem all of these guys to hell, as they were Catholics and had not accepted the Jesus Christ of the NT.)

Robin, what it sounds like to me is that you don't like the fact that others who don't get it like you do really frustrates you. I can probably lump myself into that group, as you guys are better read and "get it" more than I.

Just my 2 bits. I will go back to chewing hay, mending fences and painting my double wide...

What do you think being 'well read' and 'getting it' pays?? You are a freaking surgeon my friend. The trailer parks are full of philosophers (Chris in the Morning being one of my favorites).

[All-American]

I'm one of the stranger Mormons out there in that I have a deep and genuine respect for the Catholic Church. I don't ignore the unfortunate incidents that mar an otherwise good institution-- many of which the church has apologized for and has attempted to make amends to the extent possible. In learning the Latin language, one can almost hear the echoes of untold thousands for whom Latin was the language by which they came to Christ; a devotion that sanctifies those words. Their devotion to God included all that they had to offer-- I believe they lived the law of consecration in a sense that is lost upon many members of the LDS Church.

One needs only to hear the hymn, "Veni Veni Emmanuel," to recognize that there is doubtlessly something of the divine in the faith of those followers of the Savior. It is absolutely beautiful. The first time I really believed D&C 25:12 was when I heard that song with a translation in front of me; HERE, finally, was a prayer unto God.

It's all to easy to bash those of other faiths, and the tendency is unfortunate. There is much of good in other churches which we overlook. There is truth to be found everywhere, and a member of THIS church should be able to gather it in from any place it should be found.