Dispensing with some nonsense I have read ...

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I thought this subject was a long way from being decided scientifically with as many opinions and debates as for example the cause of the core temperature of earth rising. Is there conclusive acceptance by the scientific community that children are not benefitted by their primary caregiver being a parent?

Personally, I am convinced intuitively that I or my wife care about my kids more than anyone else. I cannot fathom how somebody else could be more effective at teaching them the values we hold dear than us. In fact I am not sure how a study could quantify that success.

I imagine nobody can convey your values better than you.

However, the science doesn't support the concept that children not raised by parents are developmentally harmed. Children can learn to be great students or athletes or even citizens even if they aren't raised by parents.

The children may not miss out developmentally, but the parents miss out bonding with the children. That is the price some of us pay if we are absent. As a working father, I have missed out on many things because I am needed to work.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Ironically, tooblue, you left this community because you felt.....what is the right word, offended? angry? unappreciated?

So that must give you some insight in how the actions of others could make someone not inclined to stick around.

Actually none of those things. The assumption is that I left for a time for those reasons. One can find something offensive and yet not be offended.

You see it's awfully convenient to feel that way about me isn't it. It frames the world that is CougarGuard in such a way that makes sense ... but does it? What happens when I don't simply fit the part, play the role exactly as hoped or intended?

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Requiem

You ask good questions. I will add a brief response using only my limited perspective. There is a not so subtle distinction made in the church between motherhood and the "rest of us". Motherhood is held as the divine ideal and that is not offensive. However, the ever increasing number of single women without children in the church also need to hear that we have divine worth. It is difficult to articulate the emotions; suffice to say I find many men who are priesthood leaders to be coldly detached and insensitive to this issue.

So your reason for venting is not so much genuine disagreement with the position, but the lack of recognition of those who don't fit the "perfect mold?"

I think that is understandable. Every human wants to be recognized and feel included. Do you not think that the LDS Church has not taken steps to better recognize this situation? I have read articles recently in the Ensign that speak specifically to this subject and seek to make the general membership more aware of how our focus on the ideal can negatively impact those who neither have the ideal presently in their lives nor particularly want it. It is my opinion that the LDS Church is improving in that area. However, the Church is enormous and bureacratically managed by older folks. Culture and beliefs and doctrine get intertwined into a deep root set of inertia that makes change very slow.

However, I think that given the limited time and the narrower focus of "General Conference" giving greater deference to the ideal should not be so offensive, and need not be interpreted at the expense of including those mentioned above. But then again, I am admittedly marginally mullah...I just wish "they" would have let Ronnie Jenkins get all his allocated "mercy" while he still had football elgibility.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

However, the science doesn't support the concept that children not raised by parents are developmentally harmed.

Care to cite some reputable studies?

Children can learn to be great students or athletes or even citizens even if they aren't raised by parents.

Of course that's true, but do you want to be an oddsmaker?

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Ironically, tooblue, you left this community because you felt.....what is the right word, offended? angry? unappreciated?

So that must give you some insight in how the actions of others could make someone not inclined to stick around.

And what's most ironic is those that are careful to critcise against giving offense do not see their actions as offensive but merely elightnement!

lol

Which is the greater irony. This is like a great Greek tragedy.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I imagine nobody can convey your values better than you.

However, the science doesn't support the concept that children not raised by parents are developmentally harmed. Children can learn to be great students or athletes or even citizens even if they aren't raised by parents.

The children may not miss out developmentally, but the parents miss out bonding with the children. That is the price some of us pay if we are absent. As a working father, I have missed out on many things because I am needed to work.

I believe that our purpose for coming to earth was to develop the attitudes and habits of Deity. I think that child raising provides many of us the best opportunities for understanding charity that mortality can provide. I only think that is possible by rendering our children as much service as we can. I think the nurturing children aspect of parenting is a two way street of benefit, clearly the women get the brunt or better of the situation if the men work.

Further, back to said studies, I am not sure if that metric of success captures what is trully important to religious folks, or at least to me and my wife as I try not to speak for all.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Care to cite some reputable studies?

Of course that's true, but do you want to be an oddsmaker?

Mike has his fingers on those studies and I would have to look them up. You're a good researcher so you should be able to find them in American Pediatrics or something like that. I believe the New England Journal of Medicine has had some studies and one of the early childhood development journals as well.

Now, it will turn on the quality of childcare.

But for my socio-economic group, that is usually not a problem.

[BYU71]

Have they ever mentioned in conference one of the other real problems with women who work outside the home. It heavily increases the chance for adultery. I think I have heard that a lot of marriages that break up happen because the woman falls or at least gets involved with another man at work.

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 divorces of "active" LDS couples and 3 of them were because of this. I know of a couple of others where the gal never got caught or at least they didn't get divorced. I didn't tell on them either.

I do know of a sixth situation, but that involved a counselor in the Bishopric and a relief society President. She was a stay at home mom.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Have they ever mentioned in conference one of the other real problems with women who work outside the home. It heavily increases the chance for adultery. I think I have heard that a lot of marriages that break up happen because the woman falls or at least gets involved with another man at work.

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 divorces of "active" LDS couples and 3 of them were because of this. I know of a couple of others where the gal never got caught or at least they didn't get divorced. I didn't tell on them either.

I do know of a sixth situation, but that involved a counselor in the Bishopric and a relief society President. She was a stay at home mom.

And this may be the reason why women won't be extended the priesthood any time soon.

If you had women and men working long hours together away from spouse and home, the possibilities of adultery increase.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

If a woman, who has spiritual inclinations, but a need to work outside the home, hears constantly, "You women who work outside the home are evil" more or less

More or less? If a woman hears that message, then she is not listening very carefully.

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Just like a talk that says "You may feel like you are on the fringe of the church, that you don't have a place in this church. I assure you that you do, that you are wanted, we need you. The church has a big tent, and the stakes of zion are to be enlarged"---this may draw people in. (My stake president has given such a talk in my ward).

So have multiple general authorities. By the way Mike, did you notice how we got a talk on fathers spending more time in the home, about 5 seconds after you complained about NOT hearing that?

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Honestly? Link? What have I said that could even be partially construed to lead someone to conclude this?

I haven't either, but far be it for me to get in the way of Arch's smear campaign.