Uninsured, a question...

[Clark Addison]

Originally Posted by K-dog

There is a difference though. I asserting that many of the uninsured aren't doing it because they don't have enough money but because they choose to spend money on different things. Then, if they need health care they can pay for it. I assert that the reason they are uninsured is they prefer to allocate their money differently and bear the risk. I say, let them bear the risk.

How many is many? I'm sure that there are people in both camps (poor vs. choice), but are 80% of the uninsured there because they have no choice? Or are 80% playing the odds. I really don't know the answer to this. Do you, or are you forming your opinions solely through anecdotal evidence?

[exUte]

Originally Posted by K-dog

I've recently read, and begun paying attention to, the healthcare debate. I'm intrigued by the conceptualization of who is uninsured and why. As a result, I would like to ask you all to respond...if you aren't too humiliated to do so.

1) Have you ever been uninsured?

2) Why were you uninsured?

3) With different choices could you have been insured?

I will begin by answering:

1) I was uninsured from the time I returned from my mission until I married my wife and she made me buy insurance.

2) I was uninsured because I rarely got sick and wasn't particularly concerned about it when I did get sick. I also wanted to spend my money on different things. I could have gotten cheap healthcare but I didn't consider it enough of a benefit to buy it.

3) Yes.

Given my personal experience, anecdotal as it may be, with the healthcare industry and the life of an uninsured individual, I must surmise that there are options available to those who are uninsured but they don't value those options sufficiently to avail themselves of them.

1) The fastest growing group of uninsured? Those couples earning more than $75K but want to 'self-insure'.

2) 45% of the uninsured (as of 2005) are NON-CITIZENS.

Take those two groups out of the uninsured pool and perhaps we can figure out a plan. But again, where will the money come from (no a universal healthcare program will not reduce premiums...........but the Dem's are blowing that sunshine up a bunch of people's skirts) and there aren't enough physicians to handle the current workload and now you're going to throw more into the system. It's the perfect storm.

[K-dog]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

How many is many? I'm sure that there are people in both camps (poor vs. choice), but are 80% of the uninsured there because they have no choice? Or are 80% playing the odds. I really don't know the answer to this. Do you, or are you forming your opinions solely through anecdotal evidence?

I don't know the answer and I'm no pollster so I've formed my opinion, and it is increasingly reinforced, by anecdotal evidence. I've met few in the other camp, thus suggesting the need for an overhaul of the system is small. I wish I could trust any of the data that comes out on these sorts of subjects but you can determine all of the conclusions based entirely on the party paying for the study.

[K-dog]

Originally Posted by exUte

1) The fastest growing group of uninsured? Those couples earning more than $75K but want to 'self-insure'.

2) 45% of the uninsured (as of 2005) are NON-CITIZENS.

Take those two groups out of the uninsured pool and perhaps we can figure out a plan. But again, where will the money come from (no a universal healthcare program will not reduce premiums...........but the Dem's are blowing that sunshine up a bunch of people's skirts) and there aren't enough physicians to handle the current workload and now you're going to throw more into the system. It's the perfect storm.

I don't have any evidence to support either of those statements, anecdotal or otherwise, but the poor people I have been or known that were uninsured were in that position because they preferred to be uninsured over missing out on something else.

Hell, I was in college, owned a motor cycle, a snowmobile, a '77 blazer, and a Volkswagon Fox, any of which, if sold, would have paid for BYU's insurance plan. Instead, I lied and kept my toys.

[ERCougar]

I'm not exactly sure what you're advocating here.

Your situation is one of the justification for Mitt/Hillary's mandatory insurance. Say you get in a snowmobiling accident and are severely injured, requiring surgery, rehab, etc. Now you're not insured and can't cover your bills. We can't just leave you out on the street, so either the hospital eats your expenses, passing them on in higher bills the insured and/or those capable of paying their bills, or you go on disability and the government covers your expenses. Who's the freeloader again?

Anyway, tell me exactly what you're advocating and then we can discuss more intelligently the issues involved.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I'm not exactly sure what you're advocating here.

Your situation is one of the justification for Mitt/Hillary's mandatory insurance. Say you get in a snowmobiling accident and are severely injured, requiring surgery, rehab, etc. Now you're not insured and can't cover your bills. We can't just leave you out on the street, so either the hospital eats your expenses, passing them on in higher bills the insured and/or those capable of paying their bills, or you go on disability and the government covers your expenses. Who's the freeloader again?

Anyway, tell me exactly what you're advocating and then we can discuss more intelligently the issues involved.

that's what I've been saying: the insured are already paying for the uninsured, but in an inefficient way.

[Ma'ake]

I've never been without insurance, and I've for damn sure never mouthed off at work to jeopardize that situation.

I have some Tongan "cousins" who do "yate", which is yardwork. It is a cash business, they're really not qualified to do anything else, one of them is marginally literate. These guys are great human beings, but from the Islands, they're like fish out of water in the complexities of our economy & culture.

One time at their house I noticed Hanisi wasn't in the room anymore, asked his brother where he was, he said he wasn't feeling well, "can't catch his breath".

Sooo... I went to see how he was doing, he had all the classic signs of a cardiac event. I said "we're going to the hospital", he declined, saying he doesn't have the money for it, has no insurance. I pressed it, he said no. I got belligerent, he agreed to get in my truck and I took him to LDS hospital.

The surgeon who performed his four way bypass told him he would have died had he not come into the hospital. Did I save he life? No, not really, but his reluctance to expose himself to the financial burden of medical care nearly killed him.

Conservatives like to allege people in Canada are literally dying waiting for their turn on the waiting list for some procedures.

I'm absolutely positive we have more than just a few Americans dying (literally) because of the financial aspect of healthcare, whether it is insurance or reluctance to get needed care because the fee (and sometimes even the co-pay) will disrupt an already tight household budget.

A common conservative response to this type of dilemma is "access is guaranteed to all - it is the individual's responsibility to get the care necessary, even if it costs them financially".

I think that's a BS answer. If a poor person needs transportation, nobody suggests they buy a car & then default on the loan. If a poor family needs housing, no one tells them to buy a house & then let it go into foreclosure.

Healthcare is one basic requirement in life that shouldn't be relegated to the nuanced & pressured world of credit-worthiness and punitive interest rates. We don't have immigrants (legal or otherwise) having to finance their children's education.

Why should it be different for healthcare?

Or, as an irate Canadian once asked me (after a conversation about poor Americans going to Canada for healthcare),

"Why don't you Americans take care of your own?"

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

Or, as an irate Canadian once asked me (after a conversation about poor Americans going to Canada for healthcare),

"Why don't you Americans take care of your own?"

Canadians offer free healthcare to people who aren't Canadian?

Very Christlike of them.

I guess it balances the Canadians who come to America for better (albeit expensive) healthcare than they can get in Canada.

Circle of life.

[ute4ever]

My law school requires its students to be insured. If you don't provide proof of a policy, they enroll you in their $155/month policy. I found a very basic policy for about $65/month with very high premiums, or as the agent joked, "if you find yourself in the ER it will practically seem like you don't have insurance."

Those semesters were the only time in my adult life that I've had insurance. I am poorer than a can of tomatoes.

I pay for my daughter's insurance though.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I've never been without insurance, and I've for damn sure never mouthed off at work to jeopardize that situation.

I have some Tongan "cousins" who do "yate", which is yardwork. It is a cash business, they're really not qualified to do anything else, one of them is marginally literate. These guys are great human beings, but from the Islands, they're like fish out of water in the complexities of our economy & culture.

One time at their house I noticed Hanisi wasn't in the room anymore, asked his brother where he was, he said he wasn't feeling well, "can't catch his breath".

Sooo... I went to see how he was doing, he had all the classic signs of a cardiac event. I said "we're going to the hospital", he declined, saying he doesn't have the money for it, has no insurance. I pressed it, he said no. I got belligerent, he agreed to get in my truck and I took him to LDS hospital.

The surgeon who performed his four way bypass told him he would have died had he not come into the hospital. Did I save he life? No, not really, but his reluctance to expose himself to the financial burden of medical care nearly killed him.

Conservatives like to allege people in Canada are literally dying waiting for their turn on the waiting list for some procedures.

I'm absolutely positive we have more than just a few Americans dying (literally) because of the financial aspect of healthcare, whether it is insurance or reluctance to get needed care because the fee (and sometimes even the co-pay) will disrupt an already tight household budget.

A common conservative response to this type of dilemma is "access is guaranteed to all - it is the individual's responsibility to get the care necessary, even if it costs them financially".

I think that's a BS answer. If a poor person needs transportation, nobody suggests they buy a car & then default on the loan. If a poor family needs housing, no one tells them to buy a house & then let it go into foreclosure.

Healthcare is one basic requirement in life that shouldn't be relegated to the nuanced & pressured world of credit-worthiness and punitive interest rates. We don't have immigrants (legal or otherwise) having to finance their children's education.

Why should it be different for healthcare?

Or, as an irate Canadian once asked me (after a conversation about poor Americans going to Canada for healthcare),

"Why don't you Americans take care of your own?"

I can sort of sympathize. I think you're right in that people don't seek preventive like they should, and the government would financially benefit from them seeking this care.

However, in the specific example you cite...is your cousin a citizen? Sounds like he should be eligible for Medicaid, which would have completely covered his bills and is in some respects superior to anything Canada has to offer.

I mention this because this part is surprisingly common. I treat people all the time who just haven't bothered filling out the application. We even have social workers who will start the process for them. What else do we need to do?