Some Hinckley sermons were more effective than others.

[minn_stat]

I think the cause is multi-faceted -- and it isn't just mormonism.

The Book of Mormon's repeated cycles of "righteousness leads to prosperity which leads to pride which leads to sin/war/hardship to repentence and back to righteousness" plays a bigger role, IMO, than wealthy/successful leaders. Members see "righteousness and prosperity" together, and they make all sorts of connections between the two. Ditto for the role of American cultural obsession with materialism.

Further, I see this same sort of connection, but more open and blatant, among many other christians as well. Preachers and pseudo-preachers who make a living telling people that "God wants them to be rich". A few scriptures in the Bible are misused to prop this up to unreasonable proportions (Matthew 6, for example).

[Sleeping in EQ]

Read Max Weber.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by danimal

While I don't doubt this general trend, how on earth does the church track things such as gambling, porn, etc? They have no systematic way of gathering data on these behaviors. This may be church leaders' subjective opinions based on confessions, but who knows what the truth is about behavior.

I had the same question.
Are they going off of statistics of Bishop's interviews? I'd be surprised if they had such an accounting system and it would be an awful vehicle for gathering real data. Never seen a survey passed around in Sunday School, and I would certainly not trust the results of any such survey.

[MikeWaters]

they probably just asked Utah comcast to provide aggregated statistics, and they complied.

[ute4ever]

I have been really, really worried financially, that I am never going to get out of this hole, because of all of the litigating that I've faced. Every semester I've ended up taking out the maximum loans available to me, as I watched my debt grow higher and higher.

At the same time, I thought, education debt and fighting for my father's rights are just causes; it's not like I splurged on a BMW or designer clothing.

Conversely, I wonder how many people have watched their bills grow while they too thought they were doing the right thing by, for example, having child after child, to multiply and replenish the earth, and now find that they can't afford to raise so many. I wonder how many of those who are declaring bankruptsy felt that they were making righteous choices all along?

Anyone who has spent time in Utah knows that the vast majority of the houses that are being foreclosed are not FMCoug mansions; they are rectangular tract homes with vinyl exterior that were most likely purchased for less than $150,000.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar

I had an interesting conversation recently with a fairly high placed Church leader who, in turn, had just had a conversation with a very high placed Church leader. My friend learned that the Church observed through hard data that when President Hinckley spoke on a particular topic, there was noticeable improvement in the membership’s faithfulness in that area. He specifically cited such areas as tithes and offerings (more), gambling (less), spousal/child abuse (less) and pornography (presumably less usage, but perhaps he meant an improvement in porn quality). Obviously, problems in those areas continue, and remain serious, but improvement was observed, with one clear exception….

It was a source of great disappointment to President Hinckley that the one area in which his counsel was ignored, and in which no improvement was ever noted (within Church culture as a whole), was in money management, including debt, savings and a shift away from materialism. Though I’m getting it third hand, President Hinckley expressed frustration on multiple occasions with how the membership would take to heart so much of his counsel, but pretty much ignored him on matters pertaining to money and the pursuit of worldly goods.

It’s interesting that in our culture, we’re able, at least temporarily, to cut back on certain vices, but when it comes to acquisitiveness, fuhgeddaboudit. Apparently some can give up Penthouse, but not the Polaris.

What's sad about this is that the counsel is mostly addressing the symptoms. And you will never fix anything just treating symptoms.
It's easier to talk about symptoms and easier still to listen, but it doesn't really solve anything. But it's easier to give and receive such, so maybe that's why they keep it up. Nobody really has to dig deep and see what they find.
And you wind up with a bunch of YW presidencies frenzied about a second hole showing up in a Mia Maid's ear.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar

I had an interesting conversation recently with a fairly high placed Church leader who, in turn, had just had a conversation with a very high placed Church leader. My friend learned that the Church observed through hard data that when President Hinckley spoke on a particular topic, there was noticeable improvement in the membership’s faithfulness in that area. He specifically cited such areas as tithes and offerings (more), gambling (less), spousal/child abuse (less) and pornography (presumably less usage, but perhaps he meant an improvement in porn quality). Obviously, problems in those areas continue, and remain serious, but improvement was observed, with one clear exception….

It was a source of great disappointment to President Hinckley that the one area in which his counsel was ignored, and in which no improvement was ever noted (within Church culture as a whole), was in money management, including debt, savings and a shift away from materialism. Though I’m getting it third hand, President Hinckley expressed frustration on multiple occasions with how the membership would take to heart so much of his counsel, but pretty much ignored him on matters pertaining to money and the pursuit of worldly goods.

It’s interesting that in our culture, we’re able, at least temporarily, to cut back on certain vices, but when it comes to acquisitiveness, fuhgeddaboudit. Apparently some can give up Penthouse, but not the Polaris.

The mixed messages that come from the very top of the church can be confusing to the masses.

I truly believe there are messages for the masses that are given with a wink and a nod to the elect.

It would be interesting if we could do an experiment. Actually have all, note I said all, the membership of the church quit going after worldly things. Would the Lord in fact bless us with abundance or would we go bankrupt.

I know of people in the church who pay in excess of $100,000 a year in tithing. I just did a quick review of the people I know personally who do so and they do have a couple of things in common. They pay their tithing, contribute to other charities and have lots and lots of things.

I was told something one time that has proven to ring true. If you want to hire a top notch salesman, find someone who really likes to acquire things. The pursuit of wealth and enjoyment of such is what makes capitalism work. It is also what forms the financial strength of this church, In MY Humble Opinion.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I know of people in the church who pay in excess of $100,000 a year in tithing. I just did a quick review of the people I know personally who do so and they do have a couple of things in common. They pay their tithing, contribute to other charities and have lots and lots of things.

I bet they are also:
1- Clever
2- Persistent
3- Hard working (at least during the wealth bulding phase)

I think these have more to do with wealth aquisition than being charitable.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Brian

I bet they are also:
1- Clever
2- Persistent
3- Hard working (at least during the wealth bulding phase)

I think these have more to do with wealth aquisition than being charitable.

I am sure they have all those attributes as well as others.

I was talking about motivation and I hope I never indicated the desire to be charitable was a motivator, it is a by-product. As with anything these are generalizations. You can find specific incidences to disprove the generalization

[Tex]

Originally Posted by The_Tick

I agree with Mike on this one...

The bishops in my stake are all 6 figure folks. Their counselors are all 60-80 range except for one.

Our Stake Presidency... President = Attorney, 1st Counc. CEO of Asphalt Co., 2nd Counc. = Owner of his own Media/Advertising company.

I know, and this isn't a guess, that when an exiting SP is asked to submit some names he is counciled to consider ones financial situation. 4 of the submitted when our old SP was released were Lawyers. The other 2 are CEO/CFO's.

Money does matter in callings.

I don't have a problem with this though. As demanding as the callings are though, you need someone that owns/makes decisions for thier company so that can come and go as they need to.

I think financially stability matters more than personal wealth. One of the hats the bishop wears is steward of the ward's finances. He has to be a man of good and frugal judgment.

More than one bishop has lost his membership over misuse of funds. The same question is also considered of those who become clerks.