Question about The 2nd Coming

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Also this one:

...and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene. History of the Church II: 182.

There are those who say (and I have heard this in EQ) that if Joseph had not been murdered that he would have prepared the world sufficiently for the second coming and his prophecy would have been fulfilled. What does that say about every Prophet since then?

Pointless conjecture. One could also say that were the world sufficiently ready to be prepared for the Lord's Second Coming, it wouldn't have killed his prophet. Obviously God knew when he would remove Joseph beforehand, so this conjecture is an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately meaningless.

Originally Posted by Taq Man

This gives a little more context to the quote UtahDan gave.

Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (i.e., about 1891). This prophecy also occurs in his diary for April 6, 1843 and HC 5:336. See also D&C 130:14-17. Joseph Smith prophesies that "there of those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes." He prophesies "in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890." (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with "48 years" from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.)

How about some real context ... like the entire quote? From the transcript of the diary, via Ehat and Cook:

If I had not actually got into this work, & been called of God, I would back out. but I cannot back out. I have no doubt of the truth. were I going to prophecy I would prophecy the end will not come in 1844 or 5 or 6. or 40 years more there are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till christ comes. I was once praying earnestly upon this subject. and a voice said unto me. My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the face of the son of man.-I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this & I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time Jesus he would make his appearance.-but I do not say whether he will make his appearance or I shall go where he is.

I prophecy in the name of the Lord God.-& let it be written. that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old 48 years hence or about 1890.

From The Words of Joseph Smith p. 179. Great book, incidentally.

It is clear from the context that Joseph was giving his opinion as prophets are wont to do (see also Alma 40:5, 8, 20). It's also clear to me that Joseph did not expect to die just over a year later, and it's quite possible his full expectation was to live until he was 85.

As to the latter prophesy where he actually said "in the name of the Lord" he was correct ... the Son of Man did not come before 1890.

[Indy Coug]

It seems to me that part of the prophecy was conditional on the prophet's hypothetical survival for that long. When his death occurred 45 years earlier than 1890, that completely changed the "apocalyptic equation".

A Bayesian formula, if you will.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Tex

Pointless conjecture. One could also say that were the world sufficiently ready to be prepared for the Lord's Second Coming, it wouldn't have killed his prophet. Obviously God knew when he would remove Joseph beforehand, so this conjecture is an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately meaningless.



How about some real context ... like the entire quote? From the transcript of the diary, via Ehat and Cook:



From The Words of Joseph Smith p. 179. Great book, incidentally.

It is clear from the context that Joseph was giving his opinion as prophets are wont to do (see also Alma 40:5, 8, 20). It's also clear to me that Joseph did not expect to die just over a year later, and it's quite possible his full expectation was to live until he was 85.

As to the latter prophesy where he actually said "in the name of the Lord" he was correct ... the Son of Man did not come before 1890.

This is also the cleaned up/revised version. Why did the church feel the need to edit Josephs words? But your right this does fall into the grey area of when does a Prophet speak as a Prophet.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

This is also the cleaned up/revised version. Why did the church feel the need to edit Josephs words?

Wait a minute, how do you know that? Ehat and Cook's book is supposed to be exact transcriptions of the handwritten text, in this case, Joseph Smith's diary as recorded by Willard Richards. That's as close to the source as it gets ... can you prove that what I posted is revised?

Originally Posted by Taq Man

But your right this does fall into the grey area of when does a Prophet speak as a Prophet.

I agree.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

I haven't read through all responses yet, but Tex what do you believe? If you tell us what you believe I'll tell you what I believe.

I'm happy to tell you what I believe. I do believe in a literal Second Coming, and I have no idea how much time could pass before I'd question it. If a hundred years from now he still had not come (and were I still alive), maybe I'd start to doubt ... who knows. I certainly hope he hastens the time.

Originally Posted by Adam

This is another example of where you ask a question, refusing to have an opinion yourself, and where you will undoubtedly later claim we misunderstand you.

So please be clear and tell us your answer.

The purpose of the thread is to find out what others think, something I'm often accused of not being interested in. It wasn't meant to be combative or provocative. Stop being so hypersensitive.

[Indy Coug]

As soon as Tex weighs in the thread gets sidetracked by the gauntlet of snipers in the crowd. He was wise not to weigh in so more people would produce their opinion prior to resuming their "Tex hunt".

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Tex

Wait a minute, how do you know that? Ehat and Cook's book is supposed to be exact transcriptions of the handwritten text, in this case, Joseph Smith's diary as recorded by Willard Richards. That's as close to the source as it gets ... can you prove that what I posted is revised?

"in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890." (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with "48 years" from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.


This is what I was referring to. I see that it is in your quote so all is well. The point of the whole thing is that Joseph was convinced the second coming was imminent.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

"in the name of the Lord God - let it be written: that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890." (The official historians have deleted the last phrase, beginning with "48 years" from the church history, but it is contained in the original diary.


This is what I was referring to. I see that it is in your quote so all is well. The point of the whole thing is that Joseph was convinced the second coming was imminent.

As were the early Christians, including Paul. They were all wrong, if a literal coming is what God intended.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

The point of the whole thing is that Joseph was convinced the second coming was imminent.

Originally Posted by Archaea

As were the early Christians, including Paul. They were all wrong, if a literal coming is what God intended.

Funny enough, perhaps there's no better example to illustrate the point I was trying to make in the "prophetic infallibility" discussion.

Not to re-open old wounds, or anything ....

[Solon]

Originally Posted by jay santos

OK, thanks. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior? Or are you saying you're sold on the teachings of Jesus, as far as how to live your life?

I honestly don't know about Jesus' divinity. In many ways, I think he's an archetypal Hellenistic hero - the son of a god and a mortal woman, sent to save mankind from evil and destruction like Mithras, Heracles, or Dionysius. Not that this makes him untrue or fictional, but Jesus is very much a mythic figure to me (myth referring to how his story unfolds - not to its factuality). I can accept him as one sent from God to save the world, but I don't think Christianity is the only ticket home. We all need a hero to save us; ours happens to be Jesus.