I don't get "Satan."

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

my dad and I have had separate experiences that leaves little doubt

Ditto. And in fact I voiced something like, "thanks for giving me perfect faith, you moron. All seeds of doubt are now moot."

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Brian

Belief in satan (as a concept) can be different from a belief in a single dude named Lucifer who became satan.
I look at it more symbollically. There is an aspect within all of us that continually entices us to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and hence deny us the fruit from the tree of life. That aspect is as real and powerful (maybe moreso) as some 6'2" 210 lb dude with a goatee named Lucifer that roams the universe causing mayhem.

Regards,
Brian

210 lbs of what?

And hey, watch the goatee remarks.

[creekster]

I don't pretend to know the answer, but could it perhaps be that when you have 50 Billion, 100 Billion or more spiritual offspring, it's a mathematical certainty there will be one who will rise/fall to the position that Satan holds?

Spoken like a true actuary!

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I don't pretend to know the answer, but could it perhaps be that when you have 50 Billion, 100 Billion or more spiritual offspring, it's a mathematical certainty there will be one who will rise/fall to the position that Satan holds?

That seems like solid enough logic to me. There had to be a savior, and I guess we were all just counting on someone being willing to step up to the plate and take that on. So I don't see that it would be any different when it comes to having a devil.

[creekster]

Indy Coug wrote:
I don't pretend to know the answer, but could it perhaps be that when you have 50 Billion, 100 Billion or more spiritual offspring, it's a mathematical certainty there will be one who will rise/fall to the position that Satan holds?


That seems like solid enough logic to me. There had to be a savior, and I guess we were all just counting on someone being willing to step up to the plate and take that on. So I don't see that it would be any different when it comes to having a devil.

But that is exactly the problem. If there didn't have to be a devil, then did there have to be a savior? To save us from what? From the evil that God created and imbued us with? As much as I respect the actuarial point of view, I don't think it works here. It would reduce the plan of salvation to a crap shoot based on sample size. That is not the version of events in which I believe.

This discussion is very interesting, and I enjoy it, but to anyone that may not be clear, very little of the musings here have much to do with a basis in scritpure. If you are truly interested in the truth about these topics, the scriptures are the place to look, not here.

There; I feel better.

[All-American]

That assumes that Satan is a being of infinite evil, as the Savior is a being of infinite good. I don't believe that-- everything Satan does has a certain amount of good in it, just twisted to be off target. Also, one can fall from perfection to Satan's level on his own, whereas to go the opposite direction requires an atonement.

All you need for somebody to qualify to be the devil is somebody who falls to that level. Lucifer fell there first and hardest, but a third of the host of heaven committed the same crime. We're not looking for a one in a trillion shot.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by creekster

But that is exactly the problem. If there didn't have to be a devil, then did there have to be a savior? To save us from what? From the evil that God created and imbued us with? As much as I respect the actuarial point of view, I don't think it works here. It would reduce the plan of salvation to a crap shoot based on sample size. That is not the version of events in which I believe.

I'm too dimwitted to follow your God created evil thought. Can't Good and Evil have existed eternally? Good and Evil can't really be created can they? Couldn't we have needed a Savior precisely because outside of the presence of God we all would choose some measure of evil? I guess my bottom line questions would be: Was it possible for each and every one of God's children to have been obedient and followed the original POS? If so, who plays the role of temptor? Is the role of a temptor necessary to the POS, or is it an added measure of testing?

[Archaea]

He was in fact saying what you are, in a philosophical way.

To me, it seems odd for anybody to credit God with the creation of evil. It makes more sense to suppose the concepts exist universally of themselves; in fact, without one, the other can't exist initially. Good requires the existence of Evil to become better.

God doesn't "create" evil, it simply exists independently, often subject to God.

[Brian]

What caused all the problems in the first place?
Everything was jim dandy in the garden of eden. they could eat life fruit, just like lehi and alma (Al 32) taught. then the liar came and taught them how to judge (which god told them not to do) and adam and eve thought god would be mad at them because they were naked (even though god made them naked, so why would he be mad at them?). The liar just told them that god made them incomplete, and hence god would be really mad at them. Strange logic, but it has been very effective.
And so the liar gave us this new perspective on life. And Adam/Eve (ie Me, you, everyone) spends most of our lives judging what is good and bad, and thinking god will be mad at us because we're somehow naked. The neighbors have a better house, I must suck, I have a problem drinking whiskey, I must suck. I'm not as smart as the deacons quorumn advisor, I must suck. Etc. Even though we are what we are because god made us that way, enormous warts and all. Some people like Hitler get some power and can wreak havoc with their mindset of what is "good" and what is "evil". Again, god warned us not to play this game, or we would die.
This pride/judging, claiming that we know what is good/evil (when god told us not to get into that game) has made the world what it is.
Now, god wanted it that way, we needed to come here and see what living on the fruit of knowledge of good and evil was like. We had the life fruit before and needed to taste the other. If we are humble, Christ can give us a new heart, change our perspective and we can eat life fruit again, and hence be spiritually raised from the dead. This is what Lehi saw and what Alma explained in Al 32.

Now, does it require a 6'2 211 lb mean guy with a goatee for this happen?
I don't know. I don't see why it requires one, but I don't say he doesn't exist. Satan, be it an individual or a principal is real and very powerful. The lie he/it promulgated has made the world what it is today. The natural man (the judger, the believer of the great lie) causes all this, but is that something we gain through flesh when we are born? Or is the mean guy whispering in our ear. Personally, I think god is in control. God gives us what we need (good and bad) to learn what we need to learn here on earth. Some awful things have turned out to be blessings in the end. The judging mind wont accept that, how could anything perceived to be evil ever turn out to be something good? That's what the liar/natrual man wants us to believe.
But from the tree of life / god mind, it can.

Enough rambling.

Regards,
Brian

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Brian

Now, does it require a 6'2 211 lb mean guy with a goatee for this happen?

Woah, Satan gained a pound since your last post. The guy is gonna be fat by the end of the year.