The purpose of the no coffee rule

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Please everyone read and reread this asinine comment from this dickhead, and don't pull any punches from now on in the name of being charitable.

Yes, indeed. That's the right response. Hey, maybe we could even form our own chapter of "Jerks for Jesus".

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by jay santos

You thought that was the reaason for the silence? Please everyone read and reread this asinine comment from this dickhead, and don't pull any punches from now on in the name of being charitable.



How stupid was the Law of Moses? Not every commandment was made to satisfy your system of logic.

I thought you agreed with me. Your crack about "hot drinks" showed you could see through the ban's silliness.

Ooh, "the Law of Moses." That's heavy. I'm chastened.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I thought you agreed with me. Your crack about "hot drinks" showed you could see through the ban's silliness.

Ooh, "the Law of Moses." That's heavy. I'm chastened.

Its only silly if you aren't a member of the church. If you are, then you observe it to show devotion to God. The law of Moses is actually a very good analogy. It may seem silly to us not to eat pork or shellfish, but Jews refrained to show their devotion to God.

You know all of this Seattle. You think the church is silly and that we are silly to believe it. We get it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think we should revert back to the original "friendly suggestion" viewpoint regarding the WoW. I would like to clarify my comments a bit. Much of this has been said here before on CG, so please forgive me if I sound redundant. Let me also say that I have never struggled with observing the WoW, unless you consider Diet Coke and Mtn. Dew to be a violation.

One of the ironies of modern LDS WoW theology is that we are selective about which parts we honor. We get all uptight about tea and coffee but give no thought to hot chocolate. We also disregard the parts about herbs, meat, and selective use of grains.

I think an honest reading of section 89 indicates a revelation that is part inspiration (alcohol, tobacco, etc.) and part 19th century folk wisdom ("corn for the ox, oats for the horse, rye for fowls..."). It is also significant that it was given "not by commandment" but by "greeting" and it was directed to the "temporal salvation" of saints. This makes perfect sense since I don't think any of these items are inherently evil. Jesus changed water into wine at a wedding party for heaven's sake (a story that drips with irony on many levels)!

The real question for me is when and why did the WoW morph from a friendly suggestion to a strict commandment? I have done some research on this topic and I am convinced that although there were a few significant talks and "votes" on the subject, it was more of a slow, gradual shift in the culture of the church. As such, I think it is a real shame that some good people who struggle with WoW issues are barred from baptism and temple blessings. It just seems to be a huge departure from the original (and IMO more logical) spirit of the original revelation.

As for the Mosaic Law analogy, I respect that argument/viewpoint and I agree with the blessings of obedience. And as long as the church officially regards selected portions of the WoW as a commandment I will continue to observe it. But I will always wonder if we are giving obedience to God's will or to a more harsh interpretation/variant of God's will that gradually evolved in the minds of the members and church leaders.

[Archaea]

What really is the big hang up on it?

It is indisputable that tobacco isn't a benefit for our consumption.

And if others can consume certain portions of the coffees and teas, so what? Are we really so selfish that we're not willing to give up a few things to show some devotion to a cause? There isn't anything I consume that I wouldn't be willing to give up, if I had to.

Many cultures do this. Eastern religions often eschew many substances to show self-discipline and restraint.

What concerns me are those who misunderstand the spirit of the commandment, "do things to keep yourself healthy!" "Here's a health code that will make you healthier!"

If our religion is to cause us to be better, to think better, to treat our felllow men better and to improve our own health, how is it that we can have mullahs who pontificate whether hot chocolate should be included, but at the same time, those persons feel justified in ignoring exercise and being morbidly obese? That is the true irony for me.

Any person who doesn't wish to belong to the Church due to our health code will probably stumble upon many other things. To me, the WoW is the easiest of commandments to follow, at least the spirit thereof.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think we should revert back to the original "friendly suggestion" viewpoint regarding the WoW. I would like to clarify my comments a bit. Much of this has been said here before on CG, so please forgive me if I sound redundant. Let me also say that I have never struggled with observing the WoW, unless you consider Diet Coke and Mtn. Dew to be a violation.

One of the ironies of modern LDS WoW theology is that we are selective about which parts we honor. We get all uptight about tea and coffee but give no thought to hot chocolate. We also disregard the parts about herbs, meat, and selective use of grains.

I think an honest reading of section 89 indicates a revelation that is part inspiration (alcohol, tobacco, etc.) and part 19th century folk wisdom ("corn for the ox, oats for the horse, rye for fowls..."). It is also significant that it was given "not by commandment" but by "greeting" and it was directed to the "temporal salvation" of saints. This makes perfect sense since I don't think any of these items are inherently evil. Jesus changed water into wine at a wedding party for heaven's sake (a story that drips with irony on many levels)!

The real question for me is when and why did the WoW morph from a friendly suggestion to a strict commandment? I have done some research on this topic and I am convinced that although there were a few significant talks and "votes" on the subject, it was more of a slow, gradual shift in the culture of the church. As such, I think it is a real shame that some good people who struggle with WoW issues are barred from baptism and temple blessings. It just seems to be a huge departure from the original (and IMO more logical) spirit of the original revelation.

As for the Mosaic Law analogy, I respect that argument/viewpoint and I agree with the blessings of obedience. And as long as the church officially regards selected portions of the WoW as a commandment I will continue to observe it. But I will always wonder if we are giving obedience to God's will or to a more harsh interpretation/variant of God's will that gradually evolved in the minds of the members and church leaders.

Heber J. Grant was the one who changed this from advice to commandment.

The angle I've always heard is that this was very prophetic as the church needed a generation of living the WOW as commandment to prepare for the drug and alcohol onset of the 60's and onward.

[bluegoose]

Originally Posted by Archaea

There isn't anything I consume that I wouldn't be willing to give up, if I had to.

What about Gatorade?

[Archaea]

There's always Powerade. Now, I couldn't give up everything, else I'd cease to exist.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What really is the big hang up on it?

It is indisputable that tobacco isn't a benefit for our consumption.

And if others can consume certain portions of the coffees and teas, so what? Are we really so selfish that we're not willing to give up a few things to show some devotion to a cause? There isn't anything I consume that I wouldn't be willing to give up, if I had to.

Many cultures do this. Eastern religions often eschew many substances to show self-discipline and restraint.

What concerns me are those who misunderstand the spirit of the commandment, "do things to keep yourself healthy!" "Here's a health code that will make you healthier!"

If our religion is to cause us to be better, to think better, to treat our felllow men better and to improve our own health, how is it that we can have mullahs who pontificate whether hot chocolate should be included, but at the same time, those persons feel justified in ignoring exercise and being morbidly obese? That is the true irony for me.

Any person who doesn't wish to belong to the Church due to our health code will probably stumble upon many other things. To me, the WoW is the easiest of commandments to follow, at least the spirit thereof.

As with most elements of LDS doctrine there are antecedents to the word of wisdom. Islam prohibits alcohol and tobacco (I don't know about coffee), as do Southern Baptists and other Evangelical sects, and Seventh Day Adventists (everbody's second favorite religion here, it seems).

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Heber J. Grant was the one who changed this from advice to commandment.

I've read lots of theories on this. Supposedly there was a vote in general conference during BY's time where the saints agreed that it would be observed as a commandment.