Anyone ever been bothered by Nephi? - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

TheSizzle36 · 03-19-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

I agree that this is an important parable about missing the point.
This parable has so many interesting angles. Here is one of many.
If the plates are seen as the word of god (jesus), nephi and the boys try 3 things.
1- Intellectually obtain Jesus. Reason with the keeper of the word. Doesn't work. the keeper runs them off.
2- Purchase Jesus. Be it by works, obedience, etc. Doesn't work, the keeper runs them off.
3- Kill Laban. This finally works. Only by killing the inner Laban, the natural man, and killing him by removing the head (the old way of thinking) can Jesus be obtained.

There was an article in the Ensign by a member of the 70 I believe a few years back that discussed this in more depth.

In addition, he also mentioned that instead of just 'killing Laban' instead of trying to intellectually obtain Jesus or to purchase him, they relied on the Lord and the Spirit to obtain the plates, or, as is being referenced, find the Savior.

I have used this a few times for lessons and I think it is very valid and valuable.

Just my 2 cents.

livecoug · 03-20-2007, 12:13 AM

welcome back fus... just curious, do you believe ANYTHING in the scriptures to be an actual account? or is everything a parable....

MikeWaters · 03-20-2007, 12:25 AM

I've posted this before, but I believe the Laban account to be very interesting from a psychological viewpoint. Nephi writes a VERY detailed account, providing a rationale for each step. I think this is something that he wrestled with his entire life.

And I find an account such as this highly implausible for someone who was seeking to dupe people into believing a new book as scripture (the Joseph Smith as a knowing fraud theory).

UtahDan · 03-20-2007, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

I agree that this is an important parable about missing the point.
This parable has so many interesting angles. Here is one of many.
If the plates are seen as the word of god (jesus), nephi and the boys try 3 things.
1- Intellectually obtain Jesus. Reason with the keeper of the word. Doesn't work. the keeper runs them off.
2- Purchase Jesus. Be it by works, obedience, etc. Doesn't work, the keeper runs them off.
3- Kill Laban. This finally works. Only by killing the inner Laban, the natural man, and killing him by removing the head (the old way of thinking) can Jesus be obtained.

Interesting, but somehow (3) exceeds my ability to understand. I have my thoughts (1) and I have my actions (2). Everything I am or do consists of one or both. Can someone define (3) apart from (1) and (2) or would it be more accurate to say that it is both?

In other words, while it is an interesting abstraction, the application of (3) escapes me.

SeattleUte · 03-20-2007, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I've posted this before, but I believe the Laban account to be very interesting from a psychological viewpoint. Nephi writes a VERY detailed account, providing a rationale for each step. I think this is something that he wrestled with his entire life.

And I find an account such as this highly implausible for someone who was seeking to dupe people into believing a new book as scripture (the Joseph Smith as a knowing fraud theory).

Implausble? Are we now evaluating potential scenarios for the Book of Mormon by measuring degrees of implausibilities? I bet I can top your implausiblities.

Brian · 03-20-2007, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Interesting, but somehow (3) exceeds my ability to understand. I have my thoughts (1) and I have my actions (2). Everything I am or do consists of one or both. Can someone define (3) apart from (1) and (2) or would it be more accurate to say that it is both?

In other words, while it is an interesting abstraction, the application of (3) escapes me.

Once the application of (1) and (2) (finally) escapes comprehension, the one and last option, (3) begins to make sense.

SeattleUte · 03-20-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

Once the application of (1) and (2) (finally) escapes comprehension, the one and last option, (3) begins to make sense.

I got you through "this finally works." In fact, 1) through 3) through "this finally works" sounds a lot like the credo of someone like Don Corleone in the parable of the Godfather. Then you lost me.

MikeWaters · 03-20-2007, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Implausble? Are we now evaluating potential scenarios for the Book of Mormon by measuring degrees of implausibilities? I bet I can top your implausiblities.

I'm yet to hear a convincing argument about Joseph as a knowing fraud. Perhaps you could point out a respected historian who advances this theory.

Brian · 03-20-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I got you through "this finally works." In fact, 1) through 3) through "this finally works" sounds a lot like the credo of someone like Don Corleone in the parable of the Godfather. Then you lost me.

The BoM teaches this process in some interesting ways.
the process of being reborn is presented from at least 3 different perspectives, but the process is always the same.
3 types of people:
king benjamin's group: good christian, religious people.
alma the younger: rebellious.
lamoni: ignorant.

in all three cases, something happens that awakens them to see themselves in their fallen state. They realize how wrong their way of looking at the world is. And thus enlightened, they all cry out to Jesus for mercy. Then the miracle happens and they are changed forever. Symbolically, they have cut off the head of the corrupt priest (Laban) and can think differently.

humility->cry for jesus.

the humility part is really hard because nobody thinks they need any help, that they can do it on their own.

SeattleUte · 03-21-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

The BoM teaches this process in some interesting ways.
the process of being reborn is presented from at least 3 different perspectives, but the process is always the same.
3 types of people:
king benjamin's group: good christian, religious people.
alma the younger: rebellious.
lamoni: ignorant.

in all three cases, something happens that awakens them to see themselves in their fallen state. They realize how wrong their way of looking at the world is. And thus enlightened, they all cry out to Jesus for mercy. Then the miracle happens and they are changed forever. Symbolically, they have cut off the head of the corrupt priest (Laban) and can think differently.

humility->cry for jesus.

the humility part is really hard because nobody thinks they need any help, that they can do it on their own.

Got it. Thanks!

Pride goeth before a fall.

03-20-2007, 12:13 AM	#32
livecoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,176	welcome back fus... just curious, do you believe ANYTHING in the scriptures to be an actual account? or is everything a parable....

03-20-2007, 12:25 AM	#33
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I've posted this before, but I believe the Laban account to be very interesting from a psychological viewpoint. Nephi writes a VERY detailed account, providing a rationale for each step. I think this is something that he wrestled with his entire life. And I find an account such as this highly implausible for someone who was seeking to dupe people into believing a new book as scripture (the Joseph Smith as a knowing fraud theory).