Is SU right, will Mormons have a hard time supporting a woman?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

LOL. you're right. I should just let you carry forth the message. More credible.

You jump in, and no one addresses it on its merits. Except All-American who seems to be arguing that it doesn't matter if a culture discourages women from running from office, that's not anti-female-politician.

It's as if Saudi Arabia might be perfectly fine with female leaders, just that the females choose not to try and lead.

Where is Adam when you need him. He did a lot of the heavy lifting against the truly dumb apologia around here. I can't carry the whole load.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I listened to it on Youtube. I'm a sucker for a great speech. I used to watch Jimmy Swaggert just to admire his method. I wanted to be brought to tears. I did. To see the other side of it. I knew Sister Beck when we were children. We played together, her younger sister and I, when we were children of expats in Brazil. If ever I was fertile soil for your outlook it was the time I listened to Sister Beck's talk. But it only pissed me off, thoroughly.

Fair enough.

It's interesting how folks listen to the same words but hear different things, isn't it?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You jump in, and no one addresses it on its merits. Except All-American who seems to be arguing that it doesn't matter if a culture discourages women from running from office, that's not anti-female-politician.

It's as if Saudi Arabia might be perfectly fine with female leaders, just that the females choose not to try and lead.

Where is Adam when you need him. He did a lot of the heavy lifting against the truly dumb apologia around here. I can't carry the whole load.

That isn't at all what I'm arguing, and I have a hard time you're making such egregious reading comprehension errors on accident.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

That isn't at all what I'm arguing, and I have a hard time you're making such egregious reading comprehension errors on accident.

Let me spell this out for you. Let's say that women who run for the state legislature in Utah win at a 40% rate. Let's say this puts Utah in the top quarter in terms of womens' success.

But then we find out that only 10 women in the past 10 years have run in Utah, representing just 7% of the candidates.

And we find out that in Washington there is only a 40% success rate for women, but that there have been 75 women candidates representing 40% of all candidates.

How do we interpret the data? What conclusions do we make about Utah, in comparison to Washington state?

Self-censorship is always a response to oppression. It's like China saying "look at all the good behavior."

What everyone is trying to avoid is whether it is a good thing that Mormon women seem to be less likely to run for public office than other women in the west.

And given that adult men in the church almost NEVER have to respond to the leadership of women directly, how do these same men respond to female leadership in the workplace, or even worse, how do they respond to the leadership of LDS women in the workplace.

There is not one position of female leadership in the church, who wasn't ultimately given final approval by a man.

That has GOT to play a role in how LDS people react to female politicians, esp. in terms of things like war-decisions.

I believe the church is WASTING the talent of women, and not allowing women to spread their wings and move the work forward. But what do I know. And I would probably be much happier if I felt the church had the woman thing down perfectly. Feeling this way doesn't make me superior, it's a CURSE. I WISH I WERE LIKE T BLUE, his state is a blessing from God.

[LA Ute]

Make me an offer.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Let me spell this out for you. Let's say that women who run for the state legislature in Utah win at a 40% rate. Let's say this puts Utah in the top quarter in terms of womens' success.

But then we find out that only 10 women in the past 10 years have run in Utah, representing just 7% of the candidates.

And we find out that in Washington there is only a 40% success rate for women, but that there have been 75 women candidates representing 40% of all candidates.

How do we interpret the data? What conclusions do we make about Utah, in comparison to Washington state?

Self-censorship is always a response to oppression. It's like China saying "look at all the good behavior."

What everyone is trying to avoid is whether it is a good thing that Mormon women seem to be less likely to run for public office than other women in the west.

And given that adult men in the church almost NEVER have to respond to the leadership of women directly, how do these same men respond to female leadership in the workplace, or even worse, how do they respond to the leadership of LDS women in the workplace.

There is not one position of female leadership in the church, who wasn't ultimately given final approval by a man.

That has GOT to play a role in how LDS people react to female politicians, esp. in terms of things like war-decisions.

I believe the church is WASTING the talent of women, and not allowing women to spread their wings and move the work forward. But what do I know. And I would probably be much happier if I felt the church had the woman thing down perfectly. Feeling this way doesn't make me superior, it's a CURSE. I WISH I WERE LIKE T BLUE, his state is a blessing from God.

Thanks for "spelling it out." It's a nice little phillipic on gender suppression you've just given us, but whether or not the LDS culture discourages women from running for office, it has very little to do with your original question of whether Mormons would vote for a woman at all, which point you've not proven and hardly even addressed.

Cry "oppression" all you want. That has no bearing on whether or not Mormons will vote for women.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

Thanks for "spelling it out." It's a nice little phillipic on gender suppression you've just given us, but whether or not the LDS culture discourages women from running for office, it has very little to do with your original question of whether Mormons would vote for a woman at all, which point you've not proven and hardly even addressed.

Cry "oppression" all you want. That has no bearing on whether or not Mormons will vote for women.

You are too smart to be a vapid FAIR person. And that makes me worry that one day the walls will come crumbling down for you, and you will be long gone.

Nobody complains about Utah culture and Mormon culture, yet at the same time, no one defends it more. That tension reveals something.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are too smart to be a vapid FAIR person. And that makes me worry that one day the walls will come crumbling down for you, and you will be long gone.

Nobody complains about Utah culture and Mormon culture, yet at the same time, no one defends it more. That tension reveals something.

Tell you what, Mike. Give me one bit of evidence that shows that LDS voters are biased against women in their voting practices, and I will gladly yield. As of right now, you've not given me any evidence that shows that your interpretation of the male to female ratio in the Utah state legislature is to be preferred over mine. Instead, you've cried foul play and tried to implicate me as an accomplice to the fact.

One other thing. Without looking it up, can you tell me who your state legislator is? Voters in general pay little attention to who it is for whom they are voting. Hard to argue bias if you don't know against whom you are discriminating.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

Tell you what, Mike. Give me one bit of evidence that shows that LDS voters are biased against women in their voting practices, and I will gladly yield. As of right now, you've not given me any evidence that shows that your interpretation of the male to female ratio in the Utah state legislature is to be preferred over mine. Instead, you've cried foul play and tried to implicate me as an accomplice to the fact.

One other thing. Without looking it up, can you tell me who your state legislator is? Voters in general pay little attention to who it is for whom they are voting. Hard to argue bias if you don't know against whom you are discriminating.

most people would think that fewest women in the west would be evidence.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

most people would think that fewest women in the west would be evidence.

. . . that Mormons aren't voting for them, or that LDS women prefer to stay at home? Because there's a difference between the two.

If you think the Mormon culture discourages women from seeking office, you can keep crying out against oppression all you want. But that doesn't mean Mormons won't vote for a woman, or will have any difficulty supporting a woman vice president.