"...a bad night for the GOP"

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

I'm the one who acknowledged that there are those who believe in creation and evolution at the same time. You're confusing the belief with the use of a label.

As I suggested, I won't bother trying to educate you about the anti-religious leanings of many of our greatest presidents. If you're interested, look it up. Why does this stuff offend you so? You're really acting like a jackass.

No- please DO educate me!!! I truly cannot wait to read your thoughts on the subject.

In fact, I will give you a head start. Here is a list of the 10 best presidents of the US (based on average ranking by scholars).

Have at it.

Abraham Lincoln 1861–1865 Republican 1.58
2 Franklin D. Roosevelt 1933–1945 Democrat 2
3 George Washington 1789–1797 Unaffiliated (Pro-Administration) 2.83
4 Thomas Jefferson 1801–1809 Democratic-Republican 4.42
5 Theodore Roosevelt 1901–1909 Republican 4.83
6 Woodrow Wilson 1913–1921 Democrat 6.58
7 Harry S. Truman 1945–1953 Democrat 7.18
8 Andrew Jackson 1829–1837 Democrat 9
9 Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953–1961 Republican 10.73
10 James K. Polk

It isn't that your claim offends me. It IS that your claim is made up.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

No- please DO educate me!!! I truly cannot wait to read your thoughts on the subject.

In fact, I will give you a head start. Here is a list of the 10 best presidents of the US (based on average ranking by scholars).

Have at it.

Abraham Lincoln 1861–1865 Republican 1.58
2 Franklin D. Roosevelt 1933–1945 Democrat 2
3 George Washington 1789–1797 Unaffiliated (Pro-Administration) 2.83
4 Thomas Jefferson 1801–1809 Democratic-Republican 4.42
5 Theodore Roosevelt 1901–1909 Republican 4.83
6 Woodrow Wilson 1913–1921 Democrat 6.58
7 Harry S. Truman 1945–1953 Democrat 7.18
8 Andrew Jackson 1829–1837 Democrat 9
9 Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953–1961 Republican 10.73
10 James K. Polk

It isn't that your claim offends me. It IS that your claim is made up.

3 of the top 4 on that list seem to have been deists, and each of them have some great quotes about the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of Christianity. Thanks for the help.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

3 of the top 4 on that list seem to have been deists, and each of them have some great quotes about the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of Christianity. Thanks for the help.

THAT is what you promised to deliver? What happened to Wooting it up?

Weak. Very weak.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

THAT is what you promised to deliver? What happened to Wooting it up?

Weak. Very weak.

You're the one who created that childish term. That's how you respond to getting absolutely owned? Weak. Very weak.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

You're the one who created that childish term. That's how you respond to getting absolutely owned? Weak. Very weak.

Ah, now I get it. You saying that 3 of the top 4 were deists proves the point (even though, assuming they were deists, your point was that they were the least RELIGIOUS, and deism is clearly a religious belief. Perhaps you are intending to claim they were the least likely to believe in miracles, but I assume you are competent enough to make your own arguments). And it also proves that our best presidents were among the least religious (which would be remarkable, given that you haven't even attempted to describe who the "least religious" were).

Is this like Woot saying that if he hasn't heard of old Earth creationism, it isn't really a form of creationism?

Washington served as a member of the lay clergy of his church (were you aware of that fact?). He had such quotes as:

Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience. (an interesting quote if you are going to call him a deist, given that deists generally believe God does not intervene in human lives- i.e., bless people).

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

With Lincoln, his status as a deist is arguable at best. Most scholars will tell you he became much more devoted to Christianity following his ascendancy to the presidency (which is the period of interest for our analysis).

Jefferson- a deist.

FDR- quite religious.

But I will just take your word for it.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Ah, now I get it. You saying that 3 of the top 4 were deists proves the point (even though, assuming they were deists, your point was that they were the least RELIGIOUS, and deism is clearly a religious belief. Perhaps you are intending to claim they were the least likely to believe in miracles, but I assume you are competent enough to make your own arguments). And it also proves that our best presidents were among the least religious (which would be remarkable, given that you haven't even attempted to describe who the "least religious" were).

Is this like Woot saying that if he hasn't heard of old Earth creationism, it isn't really a form of creationism?

Washington served as a member of the lay clergy of his church (were you aware of that fact?). He had such quotes as:

Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

In such a state of things it is in an especial manner our duty as a people, with devout reverence and affectionate gratitude, to acknowledge our many and great obligations to Almighty God and to implore Him to continue and confirm the blessings we experience. (an interesting quote if you are going to call him a deist, given that deists generally believe God does not intervene in human lives- i.e., bless people).

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

With Lincoln, his status as a deist is arguable at best. Most scholars will tell you he became much more devoted to Christianity following his ascendancy to the presidency (which is the period of interest for our analysis).

Jefferson- a deist.

FDR- quite religious.

But I will just take your word for it.

Lincoln is the most controversial, and all 3 have fairly strong quotes on both sides. None of the 3 were very religious, but they each seemed to have been conflicted to some degree about the reality of miracles. Either way, they each seem to have been among the least religious of our presidents.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

Lincoln is the most controversial, and all 3 have fairly strong quotes on both sides. None of the 3 were very religious, but they each seemed to have been conflicted to some degree about the reality of miracles. Either way, they each seem to have been among the least religious of our presidents.

Being a deist does not amount to lacking religious belief. Are you aware of that fact?

And you calling them deists does not make them deists. And you calling them deists does not make them the least religious of all US presidents.

Surely you can do better. Woot it up!

[woot]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Being a deist does not amount to lacking religious belief. Are you aware of that fact?

And you calling them deists does not make them deists. And you calling them deists does not make them the least religious of all US presidents.

Surely you can do better. Woot it up!

I hope you're figuring out my tactics here. I hint at what I think, then you give a long-winded lecture stating either batshit crazy nonsense or extremely obvious stuff that I either didn't feel like typing or that I already typed but you ignored/misread. Then I give another short response making fun of your short-sightedness or pointing out other obvious facts that you weren't kind enough to type out.

Of course, your latest post falls into the category of obvious stuff that I already mentioned but which you seem to have ignored, combined with an attribution of some sort of strange solipsism that I certainly haven't evinced.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

I hope you're figuring out my tactics here. I hint at what I think, then you give a long-winded lecture stating either batshit crazy nonsense or extremely obvious stuff that I either didn't feel like typing or that I already typed but you ignored/misread. Then I give another short response making fun of your short-sightedness or pointing out other obvious facts that you weren't kind enough to type out.

Of course, your latest post falls into the category of obvious stuff that I already mentioned but which you seem to have ignored, combined with an attribution of some sort of strange solipsism that I certainly haven't evinced.

I think your tactic is much less sophisticated (and what you outlined isn't that great either).

You tend to believe that if you say it, it must be fact. What you appear to overlook is the need to provide evidence supporting your statements. Then you make arguments that you design so they can't fail (i.e., the best US presidents weren't religious (easy to disprove), and those that were succeeded in spite of their religion (impossible to either prove or disprove)).

So knowing that your first argument didn't hold any water, you then went on to present a second argument that can't possibly be demonstrated for or against, but which you think will fly here because...?

Let me present an equally absurd counter-argument: The best US presidents did not believe in evolution. Those that did succeeded in spite of that belief. Debate.

As to your claim that my latest post is full of stuff that you already agreed with, fine. Then we can agree. Because my post pointed out that you were wrong. We are in accordance.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

You tend to believe that if you say it, it must be fact.

Yes, I'm aware that you think this is true, and this is one of the reasons why your responses are so impotent. You've invented a belief that I obviously don't espouse in order to make your job easier. You fail.

(i.e., the best US presidents weren't religious

Wrong again. I never made that claim. Not surprising, given your track record of reading difficulties.

As to your claim that my latest post is full of stuff that you already agreed with, fine. Then we can agree. Because my post pointed out that you were wrong. We are in accordance.

No, your post presented that because I called them deists doesn't make them deists, which is obvious and which of course I never claimed.