"Possessed" people

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Not a single devil is cast out of anyone in the Gospel of John. In Mark, it happens at the drop of a hat.

SIEQ, do you know if Q has any "devil casting out" material in it (probably not since it is mostly sayings material)?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by pelagius

SIEQ, do you know if Q has any "devil casting out" material in it (probably not since it is mostly sayings material)?

Being just a scholarly construct, "Q" is Mark's unknown source(s), and is believed to also have been a source for the Gospel of Thomas (specifically of the sayings material which you referenced and which are also found in Mark). The devil casting out material is very important to Mark's theology, in a broad way it fits into the redemption of Israel, but it isn't in the GoT.

Luke is actually useful here as he tells us that he gets his information from earlier, though second and third hand, sources (inferentially including Mark), and thinks he has the truth of things figured out for Theophilus. Luke includes the casting out of devils in his Gospel.

Matthew doesn't sanitize Mark's casting out of devils and he is prone to rewriting Mark in the name of theology.

My take on John's gospel is that while their might be a little in there that is somehow attritutable to John, it seems to have been revised and pieced together as the work of probably at least three authors. John 20 and 21 look to be two seperate and distinct endings (John 21 explaining the apostle's death--something I've never heard discussed by rank and file Mormons), and the prologue to John and other passages have the feel of neo-platonist philosophy (and even gnosticism, to my eye). The Gospel of John probably has parts that were written quite early on in Christian history (the "Signs Gospel" assumed to be the source of the seven signs material), but I don't think it took it's current form until later. Probably near the end of the First Century.

Weighing all of this in with what I know of 1st century Judaism, it is fair to conclude that many early Christians believed in posession.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Not a single devil is cast out of anyone in the Gospel of John. In Mark, it happens at the drop of a hat.

And Mark is considered the Gospel most proximate to the actual events, but John is considered to have been written by an apostle or his associate.

As the the concept of possession, it sounds theologically troubling in that it appears to impede one's agency. OTOH, if it's attributable to organic causes, then it makes more sense.

I have never witnessed a perceived possession, as Europeans were too much rational to even mention such things. Usually the stories I've heard told hearken from South America where lots of weird stuff transpired.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by The Borg

..and this is where I was trying to go with this thread. Do you propose then, that the scriptures are symbolical of Christ merely healing a disease, or curing a bodily malfunction, rather than casting out an evil spirit?

My guess is that it was probably both, but that's just a wild guess and not based on anything substantive.

[Black Diamond Bay]

I had a friend that I grew up with, dated, and my parents wanted me to marry him. However he left the church after his mission. He announced that Christ was a myth, swore-off Christianity, and proclaimed himself an agnostic. He moved to Oregon and I didn't see him for years.

We were both home over Christmas one year and he wanted to take me out. So I went out with him. When he took me home and he was getting ready to say goodbye, and then while he was standing there something changed and he got a strange look about him. His eyes went all hollow, and his face looked weird. I'm not trying to be dramatic either, I don't know how to describe it, but it really didn't look or feel like he was in there right then. I've never seen anything quite like it, and IMO it was very unnerving. I don't know what his deal was, and I've seen him once since and he seemed normal enough but right then if someone had told me he was possessed I would have whole-heartedly agreed. I don't know if he really was though.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

When he took me home and he was getting ready to say goodbye, and then while he was standing there something changed and he got a strange look about him. His eyes went all hollow, and his face looked weird. I'm not trying to be dramatic either, I don't know how to describe it, but it really didn't look or feel like he was in there right then. I've never seen anything quite like it, and IMO it was very unnerving. I don't know what his deal was, and I've seen him once since and he seemed normal enough but right then if someone had told me he was possessed I would have whole-heartedly agreed. I don't know if he really was though.

It was his horny look. All he wanted was a goodnight kiss.

[Jennerstein]

When I was in Taiwan, it was a hot bed for crazy people. We had the bag lady who tried to capture every single person's signature (we had fun signing Bill Clinton, Winnie the Pooh, etc), the air violinist who'd stand up in church and play what I think was Vivaldi, and a guy affectionately named Gypsy (he was the good kind of crazy).

On my mission, I also experienced a couple of experiences where we had to confront evil spirits. I won't go into more detail for personal spiritual reasons.

[cougarobgon]

Many of the strange things I have encountered in my lifetime have been the result of an indiviudual's mental state. However, on some rare ocassions, I have experienced the presence of what I would consider evil...whether an individual was possessed or not, the feeling I experienced was real and there was no need for me to remain in the presence of that individual.

I was raised in a very superstitious family that believed not only in demonic possessions but also in faith healers. As I kid I couldn't help but believe those things were real. My mother used to take the family just about every Sunday to a faith healer across the border into a Mexican town. The faith healer was a woman that would take on the spirit of a dead priest named el nino Fidencio. Hundreds of people would come every Sunday seeking comfort, healings, direction, etc...I still remember how this sweet old lady went through the weekly ritual of becoming possessed by the dead priest. I would describe the end result as the lady entering a trance state. What was amazing, she would remain in that trance state the whole day and would see hundreds of people. Was that real? It was to a little kid and it was scary at the time. To this date my mother swears that this lady healed me from an ailment that would have taken my life.

Other than occasionally sharing the above faith healer's experience, I subscribe to the belief that less time you devote to discussing demonic possessions or experiences, the less of an influence the adversary can have have in your life.

[TripletDaddy]

i taught an elder in the MTC that had to leave the MTC early and go home. He kind of went bananas. Dont think it was possession, just mental illness.

he wrote me a letter a few weeks after he went home and explained that he was having all kinds of hallucinations.....many of them involving rabbits all over his MTC dorm room. It was like Watership Down on acid.

I still have the letter. I should post excerpts.

[SeattleUte]

Belief in demons, possession and such is a 100% reliable test for identifying the truly, profoundly ignorant.