In the spirit of MikeWaters' religious and political conspiracy theories

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'm saying you don't possess enough perspective or information to categorically state what God's stance was or wasn't on this doctrine/practice/whatever.

Indeed.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Indeed.

I'm not judging God's intent just the outward manifestations of the conduct of human beings, not Gods.

You're simply trying to justify your racism without recognizing it.

Hence my belief that the three of you would not rejoice in a black apostle.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Neither you nor I can categorically state the mind of God, but for you to take the least plausible logical premise, i.e., that God is a racist and God really didn't want this artificial distinction of race to determine who could and who could not hold the priesthood and it's okay BY was, and to take it as a serious possibility is not acceptable to me. It seems you're looking for any reason to justify BY's racism. And as a mullah apologist, that's okay but don't be surprised when people perceive the defender's of a racist policy as racists.

You cannot defend racism without having some element of racism rub off on you.

You're also saying if God wanted to deny a class of individuals the priesthod based on a man-made designation with no logical or natural divisions, that it wouldn't be racism but it would be divine.

Well, if God really adhered to a man-made classification for determining eligibility to hold the priesthood, it would still be racist, i.e., a decision based on race, but perhaps one would not be sinning if God really ordained it. However, it begs reason that God's blessings are determined by an artificial non-natural class, race. That is a social designation, not a genetic or natural classification; hence, it seems impossible God would determine these blessings on that basis.

"There be alot of long words in there miss, we're not but humble pirates."

I sense a little Archaeaic projection on to God. Anyone else feel the draft?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I'm not judging God's intent just the outward manifestations of the conduct of human beings, not Gods.

You're simply trying to justify your racism without recognizing it.

Hence my belief that the three of you would not rejoice in a black apostle.

You can believe what you wish, Arch, but no matter how many times you stamp your foot and scream it aloud, I'm not a racist and I would be very pleased to see a black man called as an apostle.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

"There be alot of long words in there miss, we're not but humble pirates."

I sense a little Archaeaic projection on to God. Anyone else feel the draft?

Perhaps for los tres amigos. Throw in grape and you four form the Four Musketeers of Racism.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Perhaps for los tres amigos. Throw in grape and you four form the Four Musketeers of Racism.

Somehow being called a racist by you feels a little like being called a racist by Al Sharpton.

Just doesn't have the impact.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Somehow being called a racist by you feels a little like being called a racist by Al Sharpton.

Just doesn't have the impact.

So you're demeaning of a black activist is not supposed to have racial overtones?

[JohnnyLingo]

The word racist gets thrown around waaaay too much today. Say anything negative about someone black and you're a racist.

It's complete and utter crap.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Neither you nor I can categorically state the mind of God, but for you to take the least plausible logical premise, i.e., that God is a racist and God really wanted this artificial distinction of race to determine who could and who could not hold the priesthood and it's okay BY was, and to take it as a serious possibility is not acceptable to me. It seems you're looking for any reason to justify BY's racism. And as a mullah apologist, that's okay but don't be surprised when people perceive the defenders of a racist policy as racists.

You cannot defend racism without having some element of racism rub off on you.

You're also saying if God wanted to deny a class of individuals the priesthod based on a man-made designation with no logical or natural divisions, that it wouldn't be racism but it would be divine.

Well, if God really adhered to a man-made classification for determining eligibility to hold the priesthood, it would still be racist, i.e., a decision based on race, but perhaps one would not be sinning if God really ordained it. However, it begs reason that God's blessings are determined by an artificial non-natural class, race. That is a social designation, not a genetic or natural classification; hence, it seems impossible God would determine these blessings on that basis.

Have I defended any of the particulars of what Brigham Young or anyone else has said? I find these different scenarios entirely possible (without attempting to assign mathematical probabilities to them):

1. Brigham Young was racist and the ban on blacks was solely of his own doing and actively against the will of God. Successive leaders of the church also suffered from this and God was content enough to let this slide for 100+ years with nary a whisper of His displeasure of their going against His will, insofar as we are able to tell.

2. God declared to Brigham Young and other prophets that for whatever undisclosed reason(s), it was not the proper time to extend these blessings to the blacks. Thus, when David O. McKay repeatedly pleaded with God to lift the ban, God told him it simply wasn't time yet and to stop bothering him about it (a 'be still and know that I am God' moment). Admittedly, there are other scenarios which could explain the DOM anecdote as well.

3. Given #2, Brigham Young and others state opinions on why this is so in an attempt to reconcile why God wanted this exclusion. Not all opinions may be correct; some opinions may bely personal biases independent of God's decree and any scriptural foundation.

4. Independent of #2, Brigham Young's and others' biases come out various statements.

If you're upset about artificial constructs being used to deny privileges/blessings to certain groups of people, I would submit that the delineation between the tribe of Levi vs not the tribe of Levi and Jew vs Gentile is just as artificial as black vs non-black; yet those were used by God for centuries.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

The word racist gets thrown around waaaay too much today. Say anything negative about someone black and you're a racist.

It's complete and utter crap.

how do you define racisim?