Why are Republicans not in open rebellion?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

Republicans have had complete control of the government for multiple years now. What have they accomplished?

The party of "fiscal conservativism" has grossly inflated the national debt. This isn't the first time, by the way. The national debt went from about $800 billion at the end of Carter's presidency to about $4 trillion at the end of Reagan's. Clinton ran a surplus as president. This Bush has added trillions of debt already. Can Republicans really say they are the party of fiscal responsibility? Are voters really interested in voting for Republicans because they think they are fiscally responsible?

Social security- what did they do? This has been a linchpin of the party for decades and they have done nothing. Sure, you can say Democrats were obstructionists. But how many Republicans lined up to make reform happen? How many stuck their necks out when everything was on the line?

Welfare- what have they changed? What have they proposed?

Abortion- what have they done? Granted, there are constitutional limitations, but what have they altered within the framework of what is constitutionally permissible?

Border- Exactly how is it more secure today? Does anyone believe it is?

Ports- What have they done to better secure our ports and inspect incoming cargo?

Taxes- Is there anyone who really thinks their tax burden is substantially lighter today than it was when Republicans took complete control of the government? What are they doing to further reform the tax system? How many years have they talked about simplification of the tax system? What has been done? Is it simple?

While you may argue that Democrats wouldn't do anything better, we don't know because they aren't in complete control of the government. Republicans are. And what have they done with it? This Congress will meet less than the Do Nothing Congress, effectively making it the Do Nothingest Congress. They are on pace to meet for 79 days THIS YEAR. 79!!! In February, the House met for 47 HOURS!!! They have complete control of the government, and they are spending their time campaigning to get another term (and what is the purpose of that, if they are to do nothing once elected?).

You can dislike Democrats. But what do you have to like with Republicans? When given the opportunity to do whatever they want, they have done truly nothing.

I've decided I'll bite, here is why the party is not in open rebellion:

Social Security: The Republicans attempted to reform it and the Democrats blocked it. In fairness, no one in this country really wanted it so congressional support was not all it could have been. Still, this is not an issue that the rank and file cared about so no one is really upset wtih the party here.

Welfare: The big welfare reform was actually signed into law in 1996 by Clinton. It has been a resounding success. Not sure what you think republicans still want done here. In any case, no conservative I know is unhappy with his party over this.

Abortion: hoya, hoya, hoya. Republicans have done more in the last four years to at least circumscribe Roe, if not actaully overturn in, that anyone since that case was decided. Their names are Roberts and Alito. I actually think that when the historical dust settles, Bush will be remembered as much for ushering in the era of the Roberts court as he will for the Iraw war. Conservatives are beside themselves with glee here.

Border: This is an actual area where most conservatives think their party has dropped the ball. That said, I hear that the fence is about to go up. That makes most conservatives happy.

Ports: What have Republicans done about ports? Just create the department of homeland security. We can argue about whether we are any safer and my sense is no, but there has been action on this front. Also, I don't think most republicans would list that issue in their top ten.

Taxes: I would say that defining domestic issue of the last 8 years for Republicans (in a time when domestic issue got shoved to the back burner) were the tax cuts. I think that your average Republican, if you asked him, woudl tell you that they were instrumental in getting us out of the recession that was getting under way just as Clinton left office.

The bottom line for me is that while there are many reasons Republicans are upset with their party, and for good reason, I think that of the ones you have identified border security is the only one the rank and file care about. Really your complaint is not that they have done nothing, it is that they have done things you don't like. That is fine, but all you have to do is look at how hard Democrats have worked over the last six years to obstruct to realize that quite a lot has been attempted, so inaction is not the issue here. If what you really meant to say is that lack of results is an issue, then I can swallow that much more easily.

I don't dislike Democrats at all. In fact, I have thought for some time that if the Democrats would tack just a little to the center and offer some sensible solutions to just one or two things they might actually get my vote. They have been just as big of failures as the Republicans have, IMO. You don;t really think that anyone is going to vote Democrat just to see what they might do in the absense of them having actually told us in advance do you? I hope no one is naive enough to think "hmm, they can't make it any worse." It can always be worse and the devil you know may be better than the one you don't.

Now back to the really tough choice: Allen or Webb? My hard-core conservative wife told me last night that she has decided to write my name in for Senator. She just can't bring herself to vote for Allen. I'm not so sure I don't agree. (that I would make a good Senator that is)

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I've decided I'll bite, here is why the party is not in open rebellion:

Social Security: The Republicans attempted to reform it and the Democrats blocked it. In fairness, no one in this country really wanted it so congressional support was not all it could have been. Still, this is not an issue that the rank and file cared about so no one is really upset wtih the party here.

Welfare: The big welfare reform was actually signed into law in 1996 by Clinton. It has been a resounding success. Not sure what you think republicans still want done here. In any case, no conservative I know is unhappy with his party over this.

Abortion: hoya, hoya, hoya. Republicans have done more in the last four years to at least circumscribe Roe, if not actaully overturn in, that anyone since that case was decided. Their names are Roberts and Alito. I actually think that when the historical dust settles, Bush will be remembered as much for ushering in the era of the Roberts court as he will for the Iraw war. Conservatives are beside themselves with glee here.

Border: This is an actual area where most conservatives think their party has dropped the ball. That said, I hear that the fence is about to go up. That makes most conservatives happy.

Ports: What have Republicans done about ports? Just create the department of homeland security. We can argue about whether we are any safer and my sense is no, but there has been action on this front. Also, I don't think most republicans would list that issue in their top ten.

Taxes: I would say that defining domestic issue of the last 8 years for Republicans (in a time when domestic issue got shoved to the back burner) were the tax cuts. I think that your average Republican, if you asked him, woudl tell you that they were instrumental in getting us out of the recession that was getting under way just as Clinton left office.

The bottom line for me is that while there are many reasons Republicans are upset with their party, and for good reason, I think that of the ones you have identified border security is the only one the rank and file care about. Really your complaint is not that they have done nothing, it is that they have done things you don't like. That is fine, but all you have to do is look at how hard Democrats have worked over the last six years to obstruct to realize that quite a lot has been attempted, so inaction is not the issue here. If what you really meant to say is that lack of results is an issue, then I can swallow that much more easily.

I don't dislike Democrats at all. In fact, I have thought for some time that if the Democrats would tack just a little to the center and offer some sensible solutions to just one or two things they might actually get my vote. They have been just as big of failures as the Republicans have, IMO. You don;t really think that anyone is going to vote Democrat just to see what they might do in the absense of them having actually told us in advance do you? I hope no one is naive enough to think "hmm, they can't make it any worse." It can always be worse and the devil you know may be better than the one you don't.

Now back to the really tough choice: Allen or Webb? My hard-core conservative wife told me last night that she has decided to write my name in for Senator. She just can't bring herself to vote for Allen. I'm not so sure I don't agree. (that I would make a good Senator that is)

SS- Republicans ran from that issue like it was the black plague. Initially, they trumped their horns about the great impending reform. Then they realized Bush's plan was disastrous and the public was rapidly turning against it. Before you knew it, they were all jumping ship. Democrats played the part of obstacle, but Republicans botched the reform attempt from the start. They could have gotten reform through with a good plan. In fact, initially Democrats were actually acknowledging that something had to be done (a real rarity in DC with SS).

Welfare- As a Democrat, even I don't think the welfare system in its current state is "a resounding success." I am frankly shocked that you do, and that you think other Republicans agree. It is far better than what we had, but we have a lot of room for improvement. I am glad Republicans didn't do anything in the area, though, as I am quite certain they would have only worsened the situation.

Abortion- I still don't think Republicans have what they think they have with Roberts, and possibly even with Alito, when it comes to abortion. I would put good money that one or both of them pull a Rehnquist when it comes to abortion.

Border- you are glossing over an issue here with the "fence going up" language. They are putting up 700 miles of fencing on a several thousand mile long border. I am still not sure how that helps anything. In fact, I am concerned it makes things worse. The effect, as we have seen time and time again, of securing only certain portions of the border is to push immigrants to more and more danngerous crossings which are not secured (resulting in many more unnecessary deaths).

Ports- I think many Republicans, if not most, would say unsecured ports are a top 10 issue. Creating the Department of Homeland Security has been beneficial in some areas. In terms of port security, I don't see how it has done anything substantive.

Taxes- I am surprised you are content with their "progress" in this area too. They did pass the initial tax cuts (which they then later extended) in 2001. the current Congress has done virtually nothing in this field. What of simplifying the tax code or dozens of other tax election issues they have been promising for years?

As for Allen, if he is losing hard core conservatives like your wife, he is in trouble. I am not real hot on Webb either, but I know which of the two I would pick. I think Webb is poor at presenting himself and is poor at electioneering in general. That is hurting him in the campaign. Allen is very experienced, making his multiple gaffes hard to explain.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

SS- Republicans ran from that issue like it was the black plague. Initially, they trumped their horns about the great impending reform. Then they realized Bush's plan was disastrous and the public was rapidly turning against it. Before you knew it, they were all jumping ship. Democrats played the part of obstacle, but Republicans botched the reform attempt from the start. They could have gotten reform through with a good plan. In fact, initially Democrats were actually acknowledging that something had to be done (a real rarity in DC with SS).

Welfare- As a Democrat, even I don't think the welfare system in its current state is "a resounding success." I am frankly shocked that you do, and that you think other Republicans agree. It is far better than what we had, but we have a lot of room for improvement. I am glad Republicans didn't do anything in the area, though, as I am quite certain they would have only worsened the situation.

Abortion- I still don't think Republicans have what they think they have with Roberts, and possibly even with Alito, when it comes to abortion. I would put good money that one or both of them pull a Rehnquist when it comes to abortion.

Border- you are glossing over an issue here with the "fence going up" language. They are putting up 700 miles of fencing on a several thousand mile long border. I am still not sure how that helps anything. In fact, I am concerned it makes things worse. The effect, as we have seen time and time again, of securing only certain portions of the border is to push immigrants to more and more danngerous crossings which are not secured (resulting in many more unnecessary deaths).

Ports- I think many Republicans, if not most, would say unsecured ports are a top 10 issue. Creating the Department of Homeland Security has been beneficial in some areas. In terms of port security, I don't see how it has done anything substantive.

Taxes- I am surprised you are content with their "progress" in this area too. They did pass the initial tax cuts (which they then later extended) in 2001. the current Congress has done virtually nothing in this field. What of simplifying the tax code or dozens of other tax election issues they have been promising for years?

As for Allen, if he is losing hard core conservatives like your wife, he is in trouble. I am not real hot on Webb either, but I know which of the two I would pick. I think Webb is poor at presenting himself and is poor at electioneering in general. That is hurting him in the campaign. Allen is very experienced, making his multiple gaffes hard to explain.

I need to head home, but basically all of the above is in the nature of why you are unhappy with what was done, but you are not a Republican. I think you have confirmed what I said before about these being your complaints for the most part, and not those a Republican would articulate. I'm not saying I think you are wrong on all of them, just that I don't think Republicans share your concerns on those issues. As I alluded to before, however, I think there are some much bigger issues that Republicans are unhappy with the party over that we haven't alked about yet. The difference between us is that as a conservative I know what pisses me off whereas you are just guessing as to what might piss me off. Not a bad attempt, but those complaints look mostly like those of someone left of center. Wouldn't you concede this?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I need to head home, but basically all of the above is in the nature of why you are unhappy with what was done, but you are not a Republican. I think you have confirmed what I said before about these being your complaints for the most part, and not those a Republican would articulate. I'm not saying I think you are wrong on all of them, just that I don't think Republicans share your concerns on those issues. As I alluded to before, however, I think there are some much bigger issues that Republicans are unhappy with the party over that we haven't alked about yet. The difference between us is that as a conservative I know what pisses me off whereas you are just guessing as to what might piss me off. Not a bad attempt, but those complaints look mostly like those of someone left of center. Wouldn't you concede this?

I think you miss my point. While I somewhat editorialized what I would prefer to have happen on each of the points listed, I don't see how that changes the fact that the issues outlined above are your typical Republican campaign issues and that the Republicans have not done what they said they would do on those issues.

I will happily concede I am left of center. I wouldn't concede that the lack of action on the issues above is not incredibly troubling to your average Republican.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I think you miss my point. While I somewhat editorialized what I would prefer to have happen on each of the points listed, I don't see how that changes the fact that the issues outlined above are your typical Republican campaign issues and that the Republicans have not done what they said they would do on those issues.

I will happily concede I am left of center. I wouldn't concede that the lack of action on the issues above is not incredibly troubling to your average Republican.

Hmm. I don't think I missed your point. You point is that these are things that Republicans ought to be upset about. I have pointed out that while they may not have achieved results on each of these issues, that there has either been activity there or that these aren't issues that Republicans actually care about. You responded on each of those issues as to how you think Republicans failed, I have said that I think your critiques, though they may have merit, are not really critiques that the average Republican shares with you.

I don't agree with you that they are all typical Republican campaign issues for the reasons I state above. Of the ones that are, I think there has been satisfactory action on them except for border security. I'm just trying to get you to admit that your liberal mind may not be as well situated to make a judgment about whether the party has delivered to its base on the issues you have outlined as mine is since I am a conservative. What you perceive as failure might not be perceived the same way by me and other conservatives. As I sit here and try to imagine a roll reversal where I am trying to determine, if I am a liberal, whether the dems have delivered for me I realize how remarkably difficult it is for me to figure that out. It is not a want of intellect, but simply a want of being able to know how I viscerally (and inlight of that intellectually) react to what the dems have done. In other words, I need liberal colored glasses and that limits me. You don't have concservative colored glasses and this limits you. As a conservative it is easy for me to look at your list and know that you aren't thinking like a conservative. I am trying to get you to accept that you can't step outside of yourself enough to evaluate this one. You can accept that or not.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I think you miss my point. While I somewhat editorialized what I would prefer to have happen on each of the points listed, I don't see how that changes the fact that the issues outlined above are your typical Republican campaign issues and that the Republicans have not done what they said they would do on those issues.

I will happily concede I am left of center. I wouldn't concede that the lack of action on the issues above is not incredibly troubling to your average Republican.

Left of center? Now there's the understatement of the century.

One thing you miss is that Republicans don't expect government to do much, even on their issues. We're sometimes satisfied when things don't get worse. Or if the erosion slows.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Hmm. I don't think I missed your point. You point is that these are things that Republicans ought to be upset about. I have pointed out that while they may not have achieved results on each of these issues, that there has either been activity there or that these aren't issues that Republicans actually care about. You responded on each of those issues as to how you think Republicans failed, I have said that I think your critiques, though they may have merit, are not really critiques that the average Republican shares with you.

I don't agree with you that they are all typical Republican campaign issues for the reasons I state above. Of the ones that are, I think there has been satisfactory action on them except for border security. I'm just trying to get you to admit that your liberal mind may not be as well situated to make a judgment about whether the party has delivered to its base on the issues you have outlined as mine is since I am a conservative. What you perceive as failure might not be perceived the same way by me and other conservatives. As I sit here and try to imagine a roll reversal where I am trying to determine, if I am a liberal, whether the dems have delivered for me I realize how remarkably difficult it is for me to figure that out. It is not a want of intellect, but simply a want of being able to know how I viscerally (and inlight of that intellectually) react to what the dems have done. In other words, I need liberal colored glasses and that limits me. You don't have concservative colored glasses and this limits you. As a conservative it is easy for me to look at your list and know that you aren't thinking like a conservative. I am trying to get you to accept that you can't step outside of yourself enough to evaluate this one. You can accept that or not.

Obviously I am not in the same position as a conservative would be to say what conservatives care about. I don't think that is debatable or at issue here. I don't think I need to try to guess what conservatives are upset about. Plenty of conservative journalists and commentators have said Republicans are upset that their party has not taken sufficient action on the issues above.

Abortion is probably the issue that conservatives are happiest about of those listed above, but I have read many conservative commentators who have complained that more hasn't been done with a congressional majority. Specifically, I have read many who have asked:

1) why haven't Republicans tried to statutorily remove the judiciary's jurisdiction over abortion cases (like they did with the Pledge of Allegiance)?

2) why haven't Republicans done more to require counseling prior to obtaining abortions?

3) why haven't they done more to find ways to discourage abortion in general?

Most are pleased with the appointment of Roberts and Alito but wonder why Congress hasn't done anything to further the pro-life movement.

As for your statement that Republicans have made "satisfactory progress" on each of the issues above except border security, I have to wonder if you actually are in touch with the feelings of conservatives. I come in regular contact with many conservative people, and I simply haven't heard that position articulated. What I have heard is that while Republicans haven't done much, it is far better than what Democrats would ever do. The contempt I hear expressed from Republicans about this Congress probably helps explain why public approval of the Congress is around 20%.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

Obviously I am not in the same position as a conservative would be to say what conservatives care about.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I don't think that is debatable or at issue here.

I agree that it’s not debatable, but of course the lens you view life through is at issue. You put it there yourself by making your list and then inviting commentary as to why the base is not up in arms. I have offered you an explanation which you don't accept, which is fine. The fact, however, that you start off not knowing the answer to your question and then can't accept the one a member of the base gives you ought to highlight to you that it is at least possible that because of your view point you are very understandably having a tough time grasping why the base is not as angry is you suppose it might be.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I don't think I need to try to guess what conservatives are upset about. Plenty of conservative journalists and commentators have said Republicans are upset that their party has not taken sufficient action on the issues above.

Obviously I don't know what you might have read or heard. I can actually agree with the entire last quote if you take out "the" from the second sentence and replace it with "some" and remove the word "above" entirely. In any case, whether you actually need to guess or not, it seems to me as though you are at least in part.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

Abortion is probably the issue that conservatives are happiest about of those listed above, but I have read many conservative commentators who have complained that more hasn't been done with a congressional majority. Specifically, I have read many who have asked:

1) why haven't Republicans tried to statutorily remove the judiciary's jurisdiction over abortion cases (like they did with the Pledge of Allegiance)?

2) why haven't Republicans done more to require counseling prior to obtaining abortions?

3) why haven't they done more to find ways to discourage abortion in general?

Most are pleased with the appointment of Roberts and Alito but wonder why Congress hasn't done anything to further the pro-life movement.

For starters, I think you have overlooked the Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003. That was a big coupe for conservatives. That alone probably answers the argument. You can always do more but that was pretty big. Also, most of the work on the abortion front is being done in the statehouses which are where Republicans are most comfortable with it, and includes many of the things listed above. Moreover, we understand that if we push this issue too hard to fast that there will be a backlash. Again, I don't know who you are reading but I would invite you to put up a post on cougarboard, that bastion of the extreme right, invite people to list their top ten gripes with the Republican Party and see if ANYONE lists "not enough action on abortion." Couple the appointment of conservative jurists with the partial birth abortion victory and that is plenty for most folks.

Finally, I wonder what the factual basis is for your comment that "most" wonder why more has not been done on this issue. Are you really saying that you know a lot of conservatives and that this issue keeps coming up with them? I honestly can't think of hearing a single complaint from a fellow conservative/republican on this issue for years, nor in the conservative media. This is not to say that there aren't some Johnny one note extremists out there who don't want more done, but it is to say that conservatives are happy with the progress here, and most of us understand that any progress we do get is going to be incremental. So bottom line, this is not an issue we are remotely up in arms about. I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you think we might be.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

As for your statement that Republicans have made "satisfactory progress" on each of the issues above except border security, I have to wonder if you actually are in touch with the feelings of conservatives. I come in regular contact with many conservative people, and I simply haven't heard that position articulated. What I have heard is that while Republicans haven't done much, it is far better than what Democrats would ever do. The contempt I hear expressed from Republicans about this Congress probably helps explain why public approval of the Congress is around 20%.

I guess it all depends on what I mean by satisfactory progress. In the context of our discussion it is progress sufficient to keep republicans from being up in arms as I think you understand. I have never claimed that Republicans aren't unhappy with their party, and particularly with the president. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are talking about why republicans aren't in open rebellion which is how you have framed this discussion.

If you are telling me that the conservatives you know are in open rebellion and ready to look for the door out of the Republican party and that this is over inaction on social security, welfare reform, ports and taxes (I have conceded the border is a big issue) then I am a little incredulous.

I live in rural/suburban VA and if I can't get an accurate reading of conservative sentiment here, I don't know where one could. I can tell you that I know many conservatives who have been in near rebellion over inaction on the border issue. Also, in fairness to you, I did re-read your initial post and you do include fiscal irresponsibility. I didn't address that issue before, but this certainly is another hot area for conservatives. I will still maintain, however, that the other issues aren't areas of unhappiness for most of us.

I am interested by the last two sentences above. The second to last sentence actually is a very plausible answer to the initial question you posed. This leads me to wonder whether you just don't accept it or if your motive is something other than honest inquiry after the answer to the question you pose. The last sentence is probably exactly right. Apparently you already know the answer to your question.

If that is true then what is the purpose of listing the failures on each issue as you see them? It is of course to list the failures as you see them. Not as I or other conservatives see them, but as you see them. This is what I tried to point out initially. That is what this little exercise has been about. Nothing wrong with you expressing those opinions, but let’s be candid about the fact that your "question" was a vehicle for you to do exactly that.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Fair enough.



I agree that it’s not debatable, but of course the lens you view life through is at issue. You put it there yourself by making your list and then inviting commentary as to why the base is not up in arms. I have offered you an explanation which you don't accept, which is fine. The fact, however, that you start off not knowing the answer to your question and then can't accept the one a member of the base gives you ought to highlight to you that it is at least possible that because of your view point you are very understandably having a tough time grasping why the base is not as angry is you suppose it might be.




Obviously I don't know what you might have read or heard. I can actually agree with the entire last quote if you take out "the" from the second sentence and replace it with "some" and remove the word "above" entirely. In any case, whether you actually need to guess or not, it seems to me as though you are at least in part.



For starters, I think you have overlooked the Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003. That was a big coupe for conservatives. That alone probably answers the argument. You can always do more but that was pretty big. Also, most of the work on the abortion front is being done in the statehouses which are where Republicans are most comfortable with it, and includes many of the things listed above. Moreover, we understand that if we push this issue too hard to fast that there will be a backlash. Again, I don't know who you are reading but I would invite you to put up a post on cougarboard, that bastion of the extreme right, invite people to list their top ten gripes with the Republican Party and see if ANYONE lists "not enough action on abortion." Couple the appointment of conservative jurists with the partial birth abortion victory and that is plenty for most folks.

Finally, I wonder what the factual basis is for your comment that "most" wonder why more has not been done on this issue. Are you really saying that you know a lot of conservatives and that this issue keeps coming up with them? I honestly can't think of hearing a single complaint from a fellow conservative/republican on this issue for years, nor in the conservative media. This is not to say that there aren't some Johnny one note extremists out there who don't want more done, but it is to say that conservatives are happy with the progress here, and most of us understand that any progress we do get is going to be incremental. So bottom line, this is not an issue we are remotely up in arms about. I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you think we might be.




I guess it all depends on what I mean by satisfactory progress. In the context of our discussion it is progress sufficient to keep republicans from being up in arms as I think you understand. I have never claimed that Republicans aren't unhappy with their party, and particularly with the president. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are talking about why republicans aren't in open rebellion which is how you have framed this discussion.

If you are telling me that the conservatives you know are in open rebellion and ready to look for the door out of the Republican party and that this is over inaction on social security, welfare reform, ports and taxes (I have conceded the border is a big issue) then I am a little incredulous.

I live in rural/suburban VA and if I can't get an accurate reading of conservative sentiment here, I don't know where one could. I can tell you that I know many conservatives who have been in near rebellion over inaction on the border issue. Also, in fairness to you, I did re-read your initial post and you do include fiscal irresponsibility. I didn't address that issue before, but this certainly is another hot area for conservatives. I will still maintain, however, that the other issues aren't areas of unhappiness for most of us.

I am interested by the last two sentences above. The second to last sentence actually is a very plausible answer to the initial question you posed. This leads me to wonder whether you just don't accept it or if your motive is something other than honest inquiry after the answer to the question you pose. The last sentence is probably exactly right. Apparently you already know the answer to your question.

If that is true then what is the purpose of listing the failures on each issue as you see them? It is of course to list the failures as you see them. Not as I or other conservatives see them, but as you see them. This is what I tried to point out initially. That is what this little exercise has been about. Nothing wrong with you expressing those opinions, but let’s be candid about the fact that your "question" was a vehicle for you to do exactly that.

I am very intrigued by your belief that I am making opinions about what others believe while simultaneously telling me what I believe. The issues I outlined above are not the issues I find most pressing. My list would probably go something like this:

1. International issues- war in Iraq and Afghanistan, lack of solution for Iran and North Korea, instability in Lebanon, etc.

2. Poverty, health care, tax structure, and education in US.

3. Infringement on civil rights

4. Weak border security

5. AIDS epidemic worldwide, particularly in Africa

6. Fiscal irresponsibility

7. Assimilation of immigrants in US

Those issues aren't necessarily in order of importance, just the ones I see as being the most critical to address as soon as possible.

As for you thinking I "answered my own question," I don't think I have. I understand the philosophy that Republicans prefer Democrats to Republicans. What I don't understand is why they still have that preference. I have wondered time and again in this thread (which you apparently have missed) why they don't abandon the party for an election cycle, force the bad apples out of Congress, send a message about what they care about, and shape up in time for 2008 and make a strong showing.

I do think this thread has provided some answers to my question. It sounds like many are in a stage of rebellion. Archaea, for example, is not willing to donate money to Republicans. Your wife isn't willing to vote for Allen. They are looking for other solutions, and at the time I posted the thread, I wasn't sure that was the case (and I am still not on a wide scale).

I also don't know why you continue to ask why I have listed the issues above. You have indicated that you think the fact that you would list different issues is an indication that I don't know what Republicans are irked about. I think it is more nuanced. I am merely repeating what I am hearing from many Republicans (and yes- MANY have indicated their fury that more hasn't been done with abortion, though I also think many don't understand the full import of saying abortion is "constitutionally protected"). This may go back to Will's article. There are 2 very different camps of Republicans. Some want primarily fiscal reform, free market, etc. while others want primarily religious issues addressed (prayer in school, abortion, etc.). My list here straddled both sides.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I am very intrigued by your belief that I am making opinions about what others believe while simultaneously telling me what I believe. The issues I outlined above are not the issues I find most pressing.

Before I address anything else, I have to point out that you've just changed the subject. I didn't say that these are the issues you find most pressing. I said they were your complaints. I will concede the possibility that they are not your complaints but having arrived at that inferrence based upon what I see as your misreading of what Republicans care about, the only other option is that you are wildly mistaken. Particularly on the abortion issue, you are so far off base as to what Republicans think and care about that I am comfortable that you are either expressing your own concerns or you are just shooting in the dark about what Republican think, not actually having heard any voice those complaints. I know you will say it is otherwise, but as one who spends a lot of time trying to figure out not just if the other side is lying, but also whether my people are lying, I trust my instincts on this one. If I am wrong, so be it, but I can't square what you are telling me with anything I have experienced.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

My list would probably go something like this:

1. International issues- war in Iraq and Afghanistan, lack of solution for Iran and North Korea, instability in Lebanon, etc.

2. Poverty, health care, tax structure, and education in US.

3. Infringement on civil rights

4. Weak border security

5. AIDS epidemic worldwide, particularly in Africa

6. Fiscal irresponsibility

7. Assimilation of immigrants in US

Those issues aren't necessarily in order of importance, just the ones I see as being the most critical to address as soon as possible.

Okay.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

As for you thinking I "answered my own question," I don't think I have. I understand the philosophy that Republicans prefer Democrats to Republicans. What I don't understand is why they still have that preference.

I assume you mean "Republicans prefer Republicans to Democrats." But really? You really don't understand what this should be so? Go back and look at your original list and see whether you think any of the complaints you list (for the sake of argument lets assume they are authentic conservative complaints) arise from the GOP not being liberal enough. On your list, as well as in the reality I percieve, all of the complaints from the rank and file arise from the GOp not being conservative enough.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I have wondered time and again in this thread (which you apparently have missed) why they don't abandon the party for an election cycle, force the bad apples out of Congress, send a message about what they care about, and shape up in time for 2008 and make a strong showing.

First, you are right that I have not read the rest of this thread. I'm focused on our discussion.

Second, I have said exactly this myself:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4454

I'm not sure I really believe it though. I think that Republican and Democrats are just alike in this respect: what our own party does annoys us, but what the other party may do frightens us. Then again, maybe it is necessary. The most I could bring myself to do is stay home.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I do think this thread has provided some answers to my question. It sounds like many are in a stage of rebellion. Archaea, for example, is not willing to donate money to Republicans. Your wife isn't willing to vote for Allen. They are looking for other solutions, and at the time I posted the thread, I wasn't sure that was the case (and I am still not on a wide scale).

I don't have any doubt that many Republicans are having mutinous feelings, I just think it is for other reasons. It will be interesting to see. If the Democrats were offering the Republican base, or even moderate Republicans for that matter, any kind of alternative we could stomach it might be different, but they aren't. At the end of the day I still think most of us pull the GOP lever.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I also don't know why you continue to ask why I have listed the issues above. You have indicated that you think the fact that you would list different issues is an indication that I don't know what Republicans are irked about.

I know this is going to irritate you, but you've answered your own question again.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I think it is more nuanced. I am merely repeating what I am hearing from many Republicans (and yes- MANY have indicated their fury that more hasn't been done with abortion, though I also think many don't understand the full import of saying abortion is "constitutionally protected").

I know. I just don't believe you. It's interenet land and people can say whatever they want. Sorry.

Interesting, though, is your comment that you percieve that some conservatives don't understand the full import of that constitutional protection. I would have said if asked that it is liberals who fail to understand the very limited import of its removal. All a matter of perspective I suppose.

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

This may go back to Will's article. There are 2 very different camps of Republicans. Some want primarily fiscal reform, free market, etc. while others want primarily religious issues addressed (prayer in school, abortion, etc.). My list here straddled both sides.

I agree on the two camp theory, though I think these are tendancies rather than discreet groups. I feel both tendancies. I can grant that fiscal irresponsibility and the borders trouble me, but you know by now that the rest don't. If I'm perfectly honest, I think that congressional republicans by and large are where I would want them to be on those to issues but have compromised with the President who is not where I want him on those issues.

Lastly, I won't see your response until next Wednesday, so if you care about me seeing it, you may have to boardmail it to me. I probably will have forgetton about this by then.