Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by creekster

Lingo, apparently, has taken the last train to the coast, so is no longer here.

Is he one of the three men you admire most?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Spaz

Just curious how I got to the point of being labeled a 'mullah'. Sure, I agree with much of what those three post, but I don't think I've ever condemned anyone to an eternity of hellfire & brimstone lately....

Not since my return from my mission, and telling my family they were all going to hell. I attribute that to post-mission weirdness.

To me you get to be a mullah by doing three things:

1. Believing the orthodox position on all issues and
2. Not recognizing any ambiguity as existing on any of those issues and
3. Acting like 1 and 2 ought to be obvious to all but those who don't have testimonies.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

To me you get to be a mullah by doing three things:

1. Believing the orthodox position on all issues and
2. Not recognizing any ambiguity as existing on any of those issues and
3. Acting like 1 and 2 ought to be obvious to all but those who don't have testimonies.

That's a very nice definition, actually. Not sure it fits anyone who posts here, however.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

That's a very nice definition, actually. Not sure it fits anyone who posts here, however.

I don't either. Though it may. At least it is a reference point. I think some at least approach it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Adam

Deciding to build a conference center that fits the needs of the church was a miracle. Deciding to offer educational assistance to returned missionaries from third world countries was a miracle. Wiggling ears was a miracle.

We don't need no stinking mountains moved, dead raised, devils cast out, walking on water, dead raised directly and immediately up from their sick beds and the like.

Today we have miraculous administrative decisions and that is enough. Miracles indeed!

Adam, your line of reasoning here is offensive. Even worse, it is the type of simple-minded tripe that I would expect from ashaf, not from you. This is embarrassing.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Adam

Deciding to build a conference center that fits the needs of the church was a miracle. Deciding to offer educational assistance to returned missionaries from third world countries was a miracle. Wiggling ears was a miracle.

We don't need no stinking mountains moved, dead raised, devils cast out, walking on water, dead raised directly and immediately up from their sick beds and the like.

Today we have miraculous administrative decisions and that is enough. Miracles indeed!

BTW, that ear-wiggling comment was a real cheap shot. There is a fine line between being provocative and just being an asshole.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Adam

Ok, I'll stop.

But you have noticed that no one is willing to take on Mormon's positions on miracles and the modern church's dearth of miracles. It is a real problem IMHO. We ignore Mormon or we redefine miracle to mean something other than what Mormon meant.

The question in this thread was how one would know if there had occurred an apostasy. It is a serious answer to cite Mormon on miracles. Applying Mormon's test to today's church is troublesome.

Other than rolling over and pulling the pillow tight around your head, how do you evaluate this issue?

Anyone?

We discussed this a little a while back.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...light=miracles

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Adam

20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do amiracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should btrust.

Adam, did you ever consider looking in the mirror?

[midnightversion]

(Heber J. Grant) that the Church would fall into apostacy and that whoredoms would run rampant in it.

Incidentally, according to Fundamentalists, Heber J. Grant rejected Lorin Woolley's offer (who was the keyholder at that time, being ordained a High Apostle by John Taylor in Sept. of 1886) to ordain him Pres. of the Church.

[Tex]

A couple of items:

First, I'm not sure who surrendered the definition of miracles to Adam, or why no one is challenging his divination of Mormon's intent. Beyond speaking of the ministry of angels, Mormon gives no other clue as to what specific types of miracles "count" as evidencing the true faith, though he does ask: "Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them?" To which it is easy, of course, to answer with a resounding no.

Moreover, as it concerns the ministry of angels, Mormon uses language in verses 31 and 32 very reminiscent of the gifts of the Spirit in D&C 46:13-14. I think those two pairs of scriptures combine nicely to fit an image of angels miraculously appearing to the "chosen vessels"--ie, the prophets--who then declare it to the "residue of men"--ie, us. This is exactly the pattern the restoration of the church followed.

Second, I have seen miracles. Not just the kind that Adam will dismiss with his narrow definition ... such as the mighty change of heart. Just a few weeks ago we had a 19-year-old young man who had a mere 6 months earlier declared he would not serve a mission, tearfully relate his personal conversion to the gospel. The examples of other young men around him, combined with a healthy dose of the spirit, made him see the value in faithful Church service, and he quietly voiced his personal commitment to go. That, my friends, is a miracle.

But I have seen others. "Legitimate" miracles, to bastardize the term. I have seen people healed by the power of the priesthood and the power of faith. I have witnessed the gift of tongues. I have heard personal prophecy spoken and seen it fulfilled. To say we are not a church of miracles is to walk in darkness at noonday.

Third, as has been noted, many miracles are not spoken of. Times have changed since the early days of the restoration when such things were spoken of much more openly, and this is for particular good reason: Satan has become very adept at manufacturing counterfeit spiritual experiences. I wrote about this here.

Quoting myself in part:

I think [the adversary] has done an excellent job of manufacturing ephiphanies in an effort to confuse the spiritually inexperienced. From Jim Jones to Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts to Pat Robertson, we have a smorgasbord of spiritual manifestations that run the gamut.

It seems wisdom to me that the Lord distinguishes his church from the cacophony, rather than having Gordon try and shout one decibel louder, "No, I have seen the Lord!"

Elder Packer once told some mission presidents, when their missionaries had special spiritual experiences, that such experiences "were not to be made currency of."

We are a church of miracles, great and small. If some want to climb a flight or two into the great and spacious, point their fingers and mock, that is their right. But it doesn't void the wonders that are worked each and every day by a loving God in response to his faithful Saints.