Of the many things I am thankful for

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Perhaps so. I am just trying to elucidate for my buddy Surfah that I think that we can all agree that justice and mercy operate, and are satisfied, without formal intervention by the church in some cases.

If this is so as to "small" sins, then why not as to "large" sins? Are we saying that we have direct access to the Lord in small matters but not in large ones? That the atonement is readily available to us for minor infractions, but that we must go through the church to access it for large ones?

Since I personally believe that the atonement is a gift that is given freely and upon request (all the scriptural examples certainly support this), I don't think it is for any man, irrespective of his title, to say when this has occurred. Add it to the list of things I am probably wrong about.

I understand your point and I think the matter lies in regards to restitution for the sin. While we can argue if one sin is greater than another (in fact I think we already have a few pages back), each sin differs greatly from another based on intent, knowledge, repitition, etc. For something like missed home teaching, I think the Lord allows us to set the terms of restitution. But for more grievous sins, not committing them again is not enough and requires a judge that He has picked to discern what the restitution should be. Sometimes that may require not being entitled to exercise the priesthood and sometimes excommunication.

I may be wrong but this is how I have always perceived this process. Why do we see the Bishop for certain sins and not others? I don't know, maybe tradition or culture dictates some of that. Maybe compartmentalization keeps us from going to the Bishop for sins we consider less offensive.

Bishops in the past have helped me understand forgiveness in 2 different ways. One helped me understand that I needed to forgive myself because Heavenly Father already had. And on another occasion the Bishop helped me recognize the seriousness of the sin that I had thought was just taken care of without fulfilling the necessary steps of repentance. This is where Bishops help in regards to forgiveness. He doesn't forgive, that's not his role. He helps understand and recognize forgiveness as it is granted to us.

I am not a justice guy really, and I know that is how some of my posts on this topic may be perceived. I do know that while the atonement is infinite, it is not a blanket we throw over ourselves by merely accepting Christ. It's through accepting Him as a debtor and the terms of that debt and that it is only through His grace that any of us can return to live with the Father.

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by jay santos

This is getting circular. It's right because an authorized priesthood holder says it is. Well, yeah. And if the prophet received a revelation that the church would no longer have discipline courts or excommunicate members, then the same process would become unauthorized.

The question is whether there's something inherent about church discipline and excommunication that it is necessary in God's church.

Like the BCS, the church discipline system needs an overhaul. I predict in my lifetime we see a college football playoff AND the church discipline system is completely changed to the point where excommunications are reduced 100 fold.

Because the Church has a discipline plan in place now I would say that God deems it necessary at this point in time.

If God deems an overhaul is necessary then it will happen. And like you said, disciplinary courts would become unauthorized. That doesn't mean though that the disciplinary courts were wrong when they were authorized.

I don't want to oversimplify things but God is no respecter of persons. Remember he effectively excommunicated 1/3 of his children.

[RockyBalboa]

I FIRMLY believe that the proceedings are guided by the Spirit. Actually I don't believe, I know it.

Two people could have committed the same sin and go to a church court for the same thing, and receive completely different judgements. It is GUIDED by the Spirit.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by surfah33

I don't want to oversimplify things but God is no respecter of persons. Remember he effectively excommunicated 1/3 of his children.

Not to be a ninny, but a third part was cut off, by whom and how we know not.

We know nothing of the quantity.

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Not to be a ninny, but a third part was cut off, by whom and how we know not.

We know nothing of the quantity.

Ninny!

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by jay santos

This is getting circular. It's right because an authorized priesthood holder says it is. Well, yeah. And if the prophet received a revelation that the church would no longer have discipline courts or excommunicate members, then the same process would become unauthorized.

The question is whether there's something inherent about church discipline and excommunication that it is necessary in God's church.

Like the BCS, the church discipline system needs an overhaul. I predict in my lifetime we see a college football playoff AND the church discipline system is completely changed to the point where excommunications are reduced 100 fold.

There's a very real possibilty that your opinion on this subject is errant ... in fact at this time your opinion is incompatible with Gods, for through a prophet of God a system is already in place and therefore is necessary to God's church.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by tooblue

There's a very real possibilty that your opinion on this subject is errant ... in fact at this time your opinion is incompatible with Gods, for through a prophet of God a system is already in place and therefore is necessary to God's church.

Of course there is. Someone in 1976 who predicted that blacks would someday hold the priesthood could have been errant also. I'm not that sure of myself, but that's what I believe, and I do think I'm right. I won't teach this belief anywhere, and won't even discuss it except in very intimate or anonymous settings. My view is purely theoretical and won't change the way I live.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by tooblue

There's a very real possibilty that your opinion on this subject is errant ... in fact at this time your opinion is incompatible with Gods, for through a prophet of God a system is already in place and therefore is necessary to God's church.

Honest question for you:

If I read canon I learn a few things about forgiveness:

- It can be gained instantly
- I can murder the saints of the church and gain instant forgiveness
- I can be the most vile of apostate and gain instant forgiveness
- I can have pre-marital relations and serve a mission instantly
- I can be a prostitute selling my body and gain instant forgiveness

If I follow the mandates of the church and church approved letters concerning forgiveness I learn: (laboring from the position that the church holds the keys to forgiveness as they provide the proper avenues)

- Forgiveness is not achieved instantly
- Murder is the most vile of sins and I have very little chance at forgiveness
- Being an apostate, tearing down the church, requires years of good will to gain forgiveness
- Pre-marital relations disqualifies candidates for missionary service
- Sex is right below murder and if I participate in sex I have generally a year probation. (I've read the First Presidency letters concerning sexual sin)

So which one is correct?

Is it more appropriate the line of action Jesus takes, or the course that the church heirarchy takes?

I'm of the opinion the church is changing and that the formalities that bog down the forgiveness process will go away.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Of course there is. Someone in 1976 who predicted that blacks would someday hold the priesthood could have been errant also. I'm not that sure of myself, but that's what I believe, and I do think I'm right. I won't teach this belief anywhere, and won't even discuss it except in very intimate or anonymous settings. My view is purely theoretical and won't change the way I live.

And my opinions may also be corrected. I maintain however that the process that exists is a good and inspired process.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Honest question for you:

If I read canon I learn a few things about forgiveness:

- It can be gained instantly
- I can murder the saints of the church and gain instant forgiveness
- I can be the most vile of apostate and gain instant forgiveness
- I can have pre-marital relations and serve a mission instantly
- I can be a prostitute selling my body and gain instant forgiveness

If I follow the mandates of the church and church approved letters concerning forgiveness I learn: (laboring from the position that the church holds the keys to forgiveness as they provide the proper avenues)

- Forgiveness is not achieved instantly
- Murder is the most vile of sins and I have very little chance at forgiveness
- Being an apostate, tearing down the church, requires years of good will to gain forgiveness
- Pre-marital relations disqualifies candidates for missionary service
- Sex is right below murder and if I participate in sex I have generally a year probation. (I've read the First Presidency letters concerning sexual sin)

So which one is correct?

Is it more appropriate the line of action Jesus takes, or the course that the church heirarchy takes?

I'm of the opinion the church is changing and that the formalities that bog down the forgiveness process will go away.

The church does not hold the keys to forgiveness. Christ alone holds the keys to forgiveness. The authority to act in the name of God is given to the church and good men are asked to assist souls who are on the path of repentance.

As found in cannon a requirement of repentance is to confess one's sins to God and to one of God’s servants. That servant must possess the authority to hear the confession, counsel the individual and set the terms for reconciliation by process of discernment.

This process was no different when Christ walked the earth. Crowds recognized Christ’s' authority (albeit they did not accept his authority) and brought the sinner to him. Christ judged the sinner and set the terms for reconciliation by process of discernment.