do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized? - Page 7 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Levin · 07-23-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

is a 7yo far enough along in some cases to make that decision?

Cool, Waters' argument devolves into his problem with the line drawing. I thought your argument was that 8-years olds are not capable of deciding to be baptized. It's your burden to show they aren't, not our burden to show that 7-year olds are.

So answer the question: why, in your opinion, do 8-year olds not understand doing wrong, feeling sorry, being forgiven, and Christ's role in that process?

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

And he "wants" it that way because he's designated it as s the age of accountability. That's really the salient point we're missing here.

All this talk of maturity and rational decision-making is secondary.

I completely agree, as I have stated repeatedly in this thread.

An IQ of 30 with no ability to articulate belief, other than a nod or semblance of a nod, would be enough for me to say it was ok to be baptized at 8.

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

Cool, Waters' argument devolves into his problem with the line drawing. I thought your argument was that 8-years olds are not capable of deciding to be baptized. It's your burden to show they aren't, not our burden to show that 7-year olds are.

So answer the question: why, in your opinion, do 8-year olds not understand doing wrong, feeling sorry, being forgiven, and Christ's role in that process?

you obviously didn't read about Piaget and Kohlberg.

TripletDaddy · 07-23-2008, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

You could take this social coercion vs informed decision concept a long ways. Maybe the two are not mutually exclusive.

Marriage within a year of coming home from mission?

Agreed. we indoctrinate re: marriage at a wee age, as well.

Marriage is different because it generally involves the agency of 2 people, therefore the likelyhood that the decision is an "informed" one increases. But granted that many marry for the wrong reasons. For example, many that get married quickly realize that they are motivated by sex, but they want to get married anyway.

The general notion of early marriage and big families....definitely a big social coersion within our culture. Not exclusive to our culture, but definitely does exist.

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 07:32 PM

Thought question: parents have a severely retarded child that has made no communication over its eights years of life. He opens his eyes. He eats. He moves his extremities, but not in deliberate communicative fashion. His limbs are atrophied from laying in bed, unable to walk. He is about the most severely mentally handicapped child you can imagine (these exist, I have seen them). He was predicted to only live to 4, but has beat the odds. He is now 8. The parents approach you the bishop about he being baptized. They say they have prayed with him, and told him things about the gospel, even though he does not communicate at all. Would it be ok?

As Bishop, how do you respond?

Levin · 07-23-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

you obviously didn't read about Piaget and Kohlberg.

I have read about Piaget and Kohlberg; such info is helpful for parents, so I have it.

But don't be a puppet. Are you really saying that 8 year olds don't do wrong? That they can't "feel sorry'? That they don't understand, "I'm sorry" and "it's okay." That they can't understand Christ's role in this? If you're not saying this, then please explain.

jay santos · 07-23-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

It is odd that so many are championing the under-estimated moral, spiritual, and intellectual development of an 8 year old, to the point that they can make an informed deicion about eternal convenants......yet these same people likely would not consider leaving that same 8 year old at home alone for 3 or 4 hours to fend for themselves.

These kids are smart enough to choose Christ and baptism and understand good vs evil, but not smart enough to make their own sandwich and go to bed by themselves. They are also afraid of the dark and believe in Santa Claus.

I'm sure your kids at age three are doing and saying things that just blow you away on occasion making you really wonder how developed their little brains are. Kids are generally much more capable than we give them credit for. Come back when they're 8 and my guess is that you may change your tune on this.

At age 8 your kids will have a very solid understanding of the concepts necessary for baptism: obedience, faith, repentance, and atonement of Christ.

Levin · 07-23-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Thought question: parents have a severely retarded child that has made no communication over its eights years of life. He opens his eyes. He eats. He moves his extremities, but not in deliberate communicative fashion. His limbs are atrophied from laying in bed, unable to walk. He is about the most severely mentally handicapped child you can imagine (these exist, I have seen them). He was predicted to only live to 4, but has beat the odds. He is now 8. The parents approach you the bishop about he being baptized. They say they have prayed with him, and told him things about the gospel, even though he does not communicate at all. Would it be ok?

As Bishop, how do you respond?

I read the book of Moroni with them and say that their child doesn't need baptism.

TripletDaddy · 07-23-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

You're engaging in the fallacy of the "informed decision." A "decision" is not one where every alternative has been considered and all the pros and cons weighed.

WRT baptism, it is imply about understanding doing wrong, feeling sorry, being forgiven, and Christ making it possible. An 8-year old's soul is far enough along to do that. It's not about "hmm, I really like the selflessness of buddhism, but Catholicism has the history and the art, plus a really great pope who decries materialism . . . on the other hand, Islam understands reverence and respect for things that are holy, and they require almsgiving, which is honorable . . ."

The assumption you're making about what it means to make a decision is unrealistic. Under your rubric, I wonder if there is such a thing as a decision.

Considering other religions is only one small part of making an "informed" decision re: baptism. There are many other facets.

I would call child baptism a custom. It is also obviously a "decision." But I wouldnt call it an "informed" decision.

Just my opinion.

MikeWaters · 07-23-2008, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

I read the book of Moroni with them and say that their child doesn't need baptism.

They say they are familiar with that.

But they feel he ought to be baptized. They have prayed about it, and feel strongly that he should be baptized, but wished to seek your approval.

They ask you to pray about it. Reconsider.

Will you?

07-23-2008, 07:32 PM	#65
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Thought question: parents have a severely retarded child that has made no communication over its eights years of life. He opens his eyes. He eats. He moves his extremities, but not in deliberate communicative fashion. His limbs are atrophied from laying in bed, unable to walk. He is about the most severely mentally handicapped child you can imagine (these exist, I have seen them). He was predicted to only live to 4, but has beat the odds. He is now 8. The parents approach you the bishop about he being baptized. They say they have prayed with him, and told him things about the gospel, even though he does not communicate at all. Would it be ok? As Bishop, how do you respond?