Predict the allocation of humanity to the 3 degrees

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Tex

I think that's a pretty cynical view, but you're welcome to your opinion. As it pertains to the telestial kingdom, this is why the scriptures continue: "whosoever loves and makes a lie."

Well, what is a "lie"? It's deception. Think about what that means. We do it all the time, to some degree or another. But degree doesn't matter. Any sin is sin.
I don't think it's cynical, I think it's understanding the basic nature of fallen humanity. And being grateful that Jesus has provided a way to cover it.

Originally Posted by Tex

Hmmm. Isn't this the point I've been making all along?

Well, you're certainly quick to point what it "isn't".
So what do you think it might be?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Brian

Well, what is a "lie"? It's deception. Think about what that means. We do it all the time, to some degree or another. But degree doesn't matter. Any sin is sin.
I don't think it's cynical, I think it's understanding the basic nature of fallen humanity. And being grateful that Jesus has provided a way to cover it.

Of course degree matters. Don't we have three "degrees" of glory? Does not the telestial glory consist of varying degrees "as one star differs from another star in glory"? Do we not read that the celestial glory there are three heavens or "degrees"?

As with santos, you appear to have a fundamental misconception of the differences between terrestrial and telestial glories.

Originally Posted by Brian

Well, you're certainly quick to point what it "isn't".
So what do you think it might be?

I try to confine myself to what we know, and if I must conjecture, I try to stay within the bounds of reason. For example, though I know little of each person's personal life, I feel relatively safe in conjecturing that most of those posting on this board will not end up inheriting a telestial glory. But to try and pass judgment on the whole of humanity from the beginning, enough to assign percentages, is to me a fruitless exercise.

It's like the difference between asking me what I think BYU's record will be in 2008, and what it will be in 2071.

EDIT: I will give you my hunch. I suspect that the Lord will be as gracious as he possibly can be, and some may be surprised at how far the atonement reaches, and at how many gain celestial glory.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

Of course degree matters. Don't we have three "degrees" of glory? Does not the telestial glory consist of varying degrees "as one star differs from another star in glory"? Do we not read that the celestial glory there are three heavens or "degrees"?

As with santos, you appear to have a fundamental misconception of the differences between terrestrial and telestial glories.



I try to confine myself to what we know, and if I must conjecture, I try to stay within the bounds of reason. For example, though I know little of each person's personal life, I feel relatively safe in conjecturing that most of those posting on this board will not end up inheriting a telestial glory. But to try and pass judgment on the whole of humanity from the beginning, enough to assign percentages, is to me a fruitless exercise.

It's like the difference between asking me what I think BYU's record will be in 2008, and what it will be in 2071.

EDIT: I will give you my hunch. I suspect that the Lord will be as gracious as he possibly can be, and some may be surprised at how far the atonement reaches, and at how many gain celestial glory.

Based on the discussion, it sounds like you may be the only one surprised. Maybe it could help to accept that grace right now, rather than live a harsh life and be surprised later?

Degree doesn't matter at all. If you say degree matters, you are the one that a) has no understanding of LDS doctrine of fall and atonement or b) the definitions of the three kingdoms. Degree doesn't matter. One (or a million) sin unrepented and you're out of celestial kingdom. A million (or one) sins all repented for and you're in the celestial kingdom.

[Indy Coug]

What a fruitless exercise mortality is. Based on the above comments, I should just wax myself and my family and move on to the more important things since our exaltation is already assured.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

What a fruitless exercise mortality is. Based on the above comments, I should just wax myself and my family and move on to the more important things since our exaltation is already assured.

Nobody said anything about the level of suffering involved in repenting of that kind of serious sin in the next life. I suspect that would be a really difficult one that may take a long time.

Here's what Paul said to those who said let's go sin since we're all saved.

Paul uses the polemic technique all through Romans of throwing out the questions he's being threatened with by his critics. It's so odd to me that we as Mormons play the perfect role of what Paul is slamming against. People that slam Evangelicals or others who believe in easy grace by saying "well if we have grace, let's all just sin all we want!"

Paul does it THREE times

3:8,9
6:1,2
6:15

and the answer in 6:17,18 on why works are still vital

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Nobody said anything about the level of suffering involved in repenting of that kind of serious sin in the next life. I suspect that would be a really difficult one that may take a long time.

Here's what Paul said to those who said let's go sin since we're all saved.

Paul uses the polemic technique all through Romans of throwing out the questions he's being threatened with by his critics. It's so odd to me that we as Mormons play the perfect role of what Paul is slamming against. People that slam Evangelicals or others who believe in easy grace by saying "well if we have grace, let's all just sin all we want!"

Paul does it THREE times

3:8,9
6:1,2
6:15

and the answer in 6:17,18 on why works are still vital

Jay, I just love how you've actually studied Paul (and Romans in particular).

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Jay, I just love how you've actually studied Paul (and Romans in particular).

I've studied the bible more this year with Gospel Doctrine but it's at least partly due to those on this board like yourself and especially Pelagius for putting up his notes.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Based on the discussion, it sounds like you may be the only one surprised. Maybe it could help to accept that grace right now, rather than live a harsh life and be surprised later?

Degree doesn't matter at all. If you say degree matters, you are the one that a) has no understanding of LDS doctrine of fall and atonement or b) the definitions of the three kingdoms. Degree doesn't matter. One (or a million) sin unrepented and you're out of celestial kingdom. A million (or one) sins all repented for and you're in the celestial kingdom.

So maybe we should discard section 76 and 88, and go with the old Christian heaven/hell paradigm, eh?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

So maybe we should discard section 76 and 88, and go with the old Christian heaven/hell paradigm, eh?

I'm familiar with those sections. I've never seen a ratio of cel:ter:tel to know if I'm right or not. I don't know why you can be so confident I'm wrong.

Also, I see very little with the "old Christian heaven/hell paradigm" that doesn't fit with LDS doctrine, i.e. Christian heaven/hell = LDS spirit world paradise/prison.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm familiar with those sections. I've never seen a ratio of cel:ter:tel to know if I'm right or not. I don't know why you can be so confident I'm wrong.

Well, so far you've done nothing but attack me personally and ignored a serious exposition of how your view fits with those scriptures. Rather unconvincing.

Originally Posted by jay santos

Also, I see very little with the "old Christian heaven/hell paradigm" that doesn't fit with LDS doctrine, i.e. Christian heaven/hell = LDS spirit world paradise/prison.

Yes, but we're talking ultimate destination here. Try to stay focused.