Sex in the temple?

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

This is an ethically immature stance. You don't understand ethics.

"because my god is right and your god is wrong" is not ethics.

You're assuming that I'm taking a stance on the early church's practice of polygamy. You're assuming wrong.

-I believe the LDS church is true.
-I believe that Polygamy is currently against the direction of God.
-I believe that the FLDS members are guilty of breaking NUMEROUS laws.
-I believe the FLDS members willfully participating in the practices they are being accused of are scum-bags who deserve to rot in prison.


I don't believe I have to take a stance on the early church in order to have these beliefs.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Spaz

You're assuming that I'm taking a stance on the early church's practice of polygamy. You're assuming wrong.

-I believe the LDS church is true.
-I believe that Polygamy is currently against the direction of God.
-I believe that the FLDS members are guilty of breaking NUMEROUS laws.
-I believe the FLDS members willfully participating in the practices they are being accused of are scum-bags who deserve to rot in prison.


I don't believe I have to take a stance on the early church in order to have these beliefs.

I'm with Waters. I think your stance is ethically immature.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

What are you talking about? The "revelation" came after the federal government was about to send the troops to Utah and do the same thing that's happening in Texas now because most the country was so appalled at marital and sexual practices in Utah. Polygamy was not the norm in our culture since the barbarians were converted to Christianity. This is about the lamest apologetics I've ever seen.

I think polygamy sucks. I think it always sucked. I am not apologizing for anything nimrod.

The mormons were chased from the US for their beliefs. You have to be an idiot if you think it was because they were marrying 13 and 14 year olds. There were biggotted anti mormons and polygamy was the good puritan excuse to go after them.

You don't think those same wonderful people that persecuted the mormons wouldn't have sent the gays to jail. I guess you think since it was OK back then, gays should be sent off to jail now.

For a smart guy your ability to analyze is pretty weak when you are on your mormons suck kick.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what were the accepted norms back then? Were 15 year old girls married to 50 year old men, and no one would bat an eye?

I think 15 to 50 was not the norm but 15 to 23 would be. It was a different time with different societal constructs. Being married and having children were what society expected from women, today is different. I believe that there was abuse through polygamy in the early LDS Church. I think that the abuse we are talking about with respect to YFZ and instantly claiming that the abuse was no different in the LDS Church is dishonest. I can accept that the practice has roots in the LDS experience, but I believe that the levels of abuse here are probably far more rampant and brutal. Especially when taken in the context of societal expectations for the life of a woman today versus what society felt in 1850.

There is a middle ground I choose to stay in that there is no question that the LDS Church is to blame for polygamy, but I don't accept that polygamy instantly is to blame for abuse. There are other fundamentalist LDS sects living polygamy that don't have the rampant abuse issues of FLDS. In fact I believe that the FLDS issues are fairly recent in its own history.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm with Waters. I think your stance is ethically immature.

For the record - I couldn't care less what your opinion is.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Spaz

You're assuming that I'm taking a stance on the early church's practice of polygamy. You're assuming wrong.

-I believe the LDS church is true.
-I believe that Polygamy is currently against the direction of God.
-I believe that the FLDS members are guilty of breaking NUMEROUS laws.
-I believe the FLDS members willfully participating in the practices they are being accused of are scum-bags who deserve to rot in prison.


I don't believe I have to take a stance on the early church in order to have these beliefs.

I think you just made Mike's case for him.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

What are you talking about? The "revelation" came after the federal government was about to send the troops to Utah and do the same thing that's happening in Texas now because most the country was so appalled at marital and sexual practices in Utah. Polygamy was not the norm in our culture since the barbarians were converted to Christianity. This is about the lamest apologetics I've ever seen.

I think this is bullshit. The extent of governmental threats were to not allow Utah statehood and the rights affiliated with being a state versus a territory. Most of the country was appalled, to the extent they were, with the perceived threats that the LDS religion had interests in seeking to establish its own political kingdom in the Great Basin and thus seceding from the US. Polygamy was a very minor issue and was a vehicle to legally harass and disrupt the perceived efforts of seccession.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I think 15 to 50 was not the norm but 15 to 23 would be. It was a different time with different societal constructs. Being married and having children were what society expected from women, today is different. I believe that there was abuse through polygamy in the early LDS Church. I think that the abuse we are talking about with respect to YFZ and instantly claiming that the abuse was no different in the LDS Church is dishonest. I can accept that the practice has roots in the LDS experience, but I believe that the levels of abuse here are probably far more rampant and brutal. Especially when taken in the context of societal expectations for the life of a woman today versus what society felt in 1850.

There is a middle ground I choose to stay in that there is no question that the LDS Church is to blame for polygamy, but I don't accept that polygamy instantly is to blame for abuse. There are other fundamentalist LDS sects living polygamy that don't have the rampant abuse issues of FLDS. In fact I believe that the FLDS issues are fairly recent in its own history.

Yes. And even determining what was "normal" in the mid-1800's is a challenge, since the Mormons weren't exactly operating in "normal" circumstances. They were persecuted by mobs, thrown out of several states and migrated to Utah as a fairly insular group (out of necessity). Even absent those issues, "normal" on the frontier would have been dramatically different than "normal" in an east coast city.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

what were the accepted norms back then? Were 15 year old girls married to 50 year old men, and no one would bat an eye?

You weren't there Mike. ARe you telling me unequivocably that the early church was like the RLDS. Anyone with half a brain knows a society like the RLDS is not going to grow and prosper in a Country like ours.

What I am saying is girls married at 15. Kids couldn't sue their parents. Parents had more control over their kids than now. Men had more control over their families. People wore old fashioned orthodox type clothing.

I have hang ups with how some things are done then and now. I don't feel the need though to compare to an organization like the RLDS in order to sooth my feelings.

YOu and Su act like a couple of terribly wronged teenage girls. Get over it.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I think this is bullshit. The extent of governmental threats were to not allow Utah statehood and the rights affiliated with being a state versus a territory. Most of the country was appalled, to the extent they were, with the perceived threats that the LDS religion had interests in seeking to establish its own political kingdom in the Great Basin and thus seceding from the US. Polygamy was a very minor issue and was a vehicle to legally harass and disrupt the perceived efforts of seccession.

Agreed again, not to mention the fact that SU doesn't have a clue what he is talking about with the military going to Utah. They had already been to Utah in what was known as the Utah War (around 1856). The church didn't change its stance on polygamy because it feared destruction from the army, and the nation didn't fear the Mormons because they were polygamist.