Abraham/Isaac sacrifice

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

How is that stupid? Hitler is the ultimate justification for pre-emptive war. (We should have stopped Hitler before he invaded other countries.) Every time we start a war, conservatives speculate that a dictator could be the next Hitler.

That's off on such a wild tangent as to render it completely irrelevant to this thread.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

Tex and Indy,

You claim on one hand that i) we shouldn't limit God and his commands to exclude things that are shocking to modern sensibilities like cold-blooded murder, and ii) we shouldn't limit our discipleship or put bounds on what we would be willing to do for God even saying categorically no to cold-blooded murder.

Then on the other hand you claim that iii) Abraham was of a different kind then modern members of the Church, with a unique, special, and unattainable (at least in practice for mere mortals like me) relationship with God so I don't have to worry about ever getting asked to do something like this, and iv) it was symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ so that makes it ok that Abraham was actually willing to lower the knife.

Each of these four arguments in turn:

1) I agree that God can and according to the scriptures sometimes has ordered horrible things done like cold-blooded murder--I don't limit God and agree on this point.

2) I have limited my discipleship to the extent that I won't commit cold-blooded murder for God or his prophets. Had I been at Mountain Meadows, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Had I been in the Camp of Israel, I wouldn't have engaged in the genocide of Caanan. And so forth. Tex calls this kicking against the pricks. So be it. I will face God with my decision.

3) I fully reject your position that Abraham was different then you or I in substantial degree. I disagree that he was more than a normal man with normal weaknesses and passions and so forth. I believe that as soon as you place him (or any other prophet, historical or modern) on the pedestal you have placed him, you destroy much faith men have to overcome their own sins and you launch a cult of personality that is counterproductive to the gospel of Jesus Christ. If Abraham isn't like me, then his story has far less to teach me. I cannot be inspired by Abraham the alien. So, believing that Abraham was a man (yes a noble and great one, but I believe that I am noble and great too), I believe that there is nothing he accomplished of eternal import that I cannot accomplish. It therefore follows that if God tested him, in like kind, God might test me--or you or our modern neighbors.

4) The foreshadowing of the Christ inherent in the Abraham/Issac story is nice. It means nothing to the mindset of Abraham as he raised the knife willing to lower it. Abraham was doing it not in similitude of Christ, but with real intent. Or are you saying Abraham was just playing along with the script without intent? Is this my fundamental misreading of the story in your opinion? I don't claim superior biblical scholarship, but I read it as Abraham actually being willing to kill his son. I don't find this admirable, even recognizing the foreshadowing that was going on.

I don't know that there are very many commands, within the realm of his character, that God is incapable of issuing.

I simply find it highly unlikely that the commands of the nature we're discussing here will ever come to me, or you, or anyone either of us knows. This, because I think such commands are restricted to a chosen few whose character and calling far exceeds anything I will be asked to (or be capable of) performing.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

That's off on such a wild tangent as to render it completely irrelevant to this thread.

Sooner, you ought to read my signature.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

If you really think so lowly of yourself, you need to repent and start viewing yourself more like God views you. You are deity in embryo. This is a major spiritual flaw imho.

While not selling myself short on my eternal potential and the amazing redemptive nature of the Atonement, I'm still willing to bet dollars to donuts that I don't get to walk and talk with God (literally) while in mortality. I believe that Abraham literally did this.

I fail to see how not being able to literally walk and talk with God affects my chances at receiving Exaltation.

In fact, weren't you one of the major proponents of the idea that virtually no one in the FP, Q12, et al has actually seen the Savior?

It's my contention that Abraham had a relationship with God that is virtually unequalled in the history of mankind and that special relationship led to the special trial that God devised for him.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

If you really think so lowly of yourself, you need to repent and start viewing yourself more like God views you. You are deity in embryo. This is a major spiritual flaw imho.

Fair enough. Similarly, you could come down a few notches.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

It's my contention that Abraham had a relationship with God that is virtually unequalled in the history of mankind and that special relationship led to the special trial that God devised for him.

I'm not attacking you by asking this Indy, but I'm curious why that is your contention? Is it because you literally believe what's written in the OT re: Abraham? If so, do you also literally believe everything else written in the OT?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by scottie

I'm not attacking you by asking this Indy, but I'm curious why that is your contention? Is it because you literally believe what's written in the OT re: Abraham? If so, do you also literally believe everything else written in the OT?

Do you or do you not believe there was a literal Abraham?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by scottie

I'm not attacking you by asking this Indy, but I'm curious why that is your contention? Is it because you literally believe what's written in the OT re: Abraham? If so, do you also literally believe everything else written in the OT?

You're late. Start here:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9848

And here:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11736

[scottie]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Do you or do you not believe there was a literal Abraham?

What difference does it make?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by scottie

What difference does that make?

I just want to understand where you're coming from.