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MikeWaters · 01-31-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelagius

Oh I think you are likely to be right I just don't like how you went about. The Mauss data to be sure isn't perfect but it it is far better than the kind of casual empiricism you immediately engaged in after trying to convince people that the data were worthless (the data are limitted not worthless)

Give me a percentage guess. If you are not comfortable saying it here, send me a PM, I won't tell anyone. Your little belief that Mormons are in fact imbued with institutional racism can be our secret.

My guess: <1%. 1 in 100 would be stupidly optimistic. 1 in 1000 would be a more reasonable starting place.

Tex · 01-31-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

When they are subsequently told, "Yes, you are a child of God, but not one of the good ones", it is shattering. I thought that was an interesting insight.

WHO says this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Getting back to the original point: Mormons, now in 2008, don't believe that any mistake was ever made in the course of the whole "blacks and the priesthood" fiasco.

The Stapely letter falls to the ground, like water off a duck's back.

God, in his mysteriousness, had a reason to exclude uppity negroes from his priesthood.

And if you think that has no effect on Mormon psyche regarding race, I think that is hopelessly naive.

*Sigh* It's as though we've never had this discussion. And people wonder why it comes up again and again.

MikeWaters · 01-31-2008, 08:41 PM

This reminds me of what I think is a reasonable analogy: someone who has privately renounced owning slaves, but won't admit to ever having owned slaves when in fact he did, and donates money to the party that just happens to be devoid of abolitionists.

That's Mormonism in 2008.

pelagius · 01-31-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Give me a percentage guess. If you are not comfortable saying it here, send me a PM, I won't tell anyone. Your little belief that Mormons are in fact imbued with institutional racism can be our secret.

My guess: <1%. 1 in 100 would be stupidly optimistic. 1 in 1000 would be a more reasonable starting place.

Actually, I take that back, what is the exact question I am guessing about?

Quote:

Getting back to the original point: Mormons, now in 2008, don't believe that any mistake was ever made in the course of the whole "blacks and the priesthood" fiasco.

Is it the percentage the believe the above?

Jeff Lebowski · 01-31-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

WHO says this?

Duh. Anyone who continues to relate the "Blacks weren't valiant in the pre-existence" folklore.

Tex · 01-31-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Duh. Anyone who continues to relate the "Blacks weren't valiant in the pre-existence" folklore.

Right. All 3 of them.

MikeWaters · 01-31-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelagius

Actually, I take that back, what is the exact question I am guessing about?

Is it the percentage the believe the above?

What percent of missionaries, when asked about how blacks and the priesthood go started, say that in their opinion it was due to racism, or the faults of men, or something to that effect?

What percent say "I do not know"?

What percent offer up traditional LDS racist folklore?

What percent pretend like they didn't hear the question?

pelagius · 01-31-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What percent of missionaries, when asked about how blacks and the priesthood go started, say that in their opinion it was due to racism, or the faults of men, or something to that effect?

Well, that's a much better question than the sweeping statement you made to begin this line of inquiry. Out of my gospel doctrine class I would guess 3 out of 40 (of course that includes me, my wife, and your former gospel doctrine teacher):

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What percent say "I do not know"?

fairly small

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What percent offer up traditional LDS racist folklore?

I think very few. I think the standard response would be that "we don't why the Lord witheld the priesthood" and then some statement about the Gentiles getting the gospel in the New Testament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What percent pretend like they didn't hear the question?

Most people llke in my ward so very few.

Sorry, MW. I just noticed you said missionaries. Less than 1%.

MikeWaters · 01-31-2008, 09:03 PM

I consider the argument about Levites getting the priesthood as an excuse for people with black skin not getting the priesthood to be racist folklore, just in case you were wondering. There is a racist subtext to it.

MikeWaters · 01-31-2008, 09:04 PM

Oh, I noticed you still didn't offer a percent re: the missionaries.

01-31-2008, 08:41 PM	#73
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	This reminds me of what I think is a reasonable analogy: someone who has privately renounced owning slaves, but won't admit to ever having owned slaves when in fact he did, and donates money to the party that just happens to be devoid of abolitionists. That's Mormonism in 2008.

01-31-2008, 09:03 PM	#79
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I consider the argument about Levites getting the priesthood as an excuse for people with black skin not getting the priesthood to be racist folklore, just in case you were wondering. There is a racist subtext to it.

01-31-2008, 09:04 PM	#80
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Oh, I noticed you still didn't offer a percent re: the missionaries.