My opinion on the change in the honor code

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

All the Saints have an Honor Code, it's called the commandments. I have never been snitched out by a neighbor when I tell him I don't do my family history as diligently as I should, though it's a commandment. Yet at BYU, if I break a fairly insignificant rule, I could be snitched out and punished.

What's the point of having commandments if there is no policing action for said commandments??

I suppose there could be a process, similar to the church confession/court system, whereby a student could voluntarily (and in extremely rare cases involuntarily--rare inasmuch as involuntary church courts are rare) go to a bishop, and the bishop would determine whether the student should continue in school. The bishop's determination would be forwarded to a Honor Code office at BYU which solely exists to receive these ecclesiastical findings--not police.

The bishop currently has the authority to recommend ecclesiastical endorsement. That should be the end of the policing.

This is a far better approach IMHO.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

And I believe part of life is to test the limits of authority, in thought and in action, so that you can expand boundaries of activities. One should not be limited by past activities of persons past.

We must ever expand our knowledge, our abilities and not be limited by what people say is possible. We must adopt enabling constraints such as abiding by traffic rules and regulations, but we should not be led around like mindless robots waiting to be told which toothpaste to use, hoping it's not in violation of the some Nazi Code of Conduct.

If that's the case, then don't enroll at BYU. BYU is not a birthright nor a saving ordinance.

P.S. Your repeated hyperbole (robots, Nazi, toothpaste, etc.) does nothing to strengthen your point.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

All the Saints have an Honor Code, it's called the commandments. I have never been snitched out by a neighbor when I tell him I don't do my family history as diligently as I should, though it's a commandment. Yet at BYU, if I break a fairly insignificant rule, I could be snitched out and punished.

What's the point of having commandments if there is no policing action for said commandments??

I suppose there could be a process, similar to the church confession/court system, whereby a student could voluntarily (and in extremely rare cases involuntarily--rare inasmuch as involuntary church courts are rare) go to a bishop, and the bishop would determine whether the student should continue in school. The bishop's determination would be forwarded to a Honor Code office at BYU which solely exists to receive these ecclesiastical findings--not police.

The bishop currently has the authority to recommend ecclesiastical endorsement. That should be the end of the policing.

OK, you've still got accountability with that proposal; you've simply outsourced your HCO to the ecclesiastical leaders. That's a reasonable alternative.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If that's the case, then don't enroll at BYU. BYU is not a birthright nor a saving ordinance.

P.S. Your repeated hyperbole (robots, Nazi, toothpaste, etc.) does nothing to strengthen your point.

I'm very against this kind of sentiment and the sentiment behind the quote from then Ricks president Bednar.

This "my way or the highway" mentality is very close minded and anti-progress. Progress and positive change can be made from within by people at the bottom that can see the need for change that people at the top can't. In the same breath, the people moving from within for a change should do so patiently, acknowledging the priesthood leadership and chain of command and supporting their leaders.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If that's the case, then don't enroll at BYU. BYU is not a birthright nor a saving ordinance.

P.S. Your repeated hyperbole (robots, Nazi, toothpaste, etc.) does nothing to strengthen your point.

Nor does your hyperbole.

The actions of the HCO should be despised and ridiculed whenever possible. Abby Hoffman destroyed credibility by exposing supposed authority figures to ridicule. Yes it exposes my credibility but in terms of the Honor Code Office, it would be a major victory if BYU students completely disrespected it to the extent it became impotent and incapable of doing any harm or job. The duty of a student is to become educated and to advance thought and one's discipline and often that requires reasonable challenges to authority. I'm not stating one needs a Vietnam style protest against priesthood authority, but I do NOT equate administrators at BYU with priesthood authority even though administrators may hold the priesthood. For many, those lines of distinction are blurred.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm very against this kind of sentiment and the sentiment behind the quote from then Ricks president Bednar.

This "my way or the highway" mentality is very close minded and anti-progress. Progress and positive change can be made from within by people at the bottom that can see the need for change that people at the top can't. In the same breath, the people moving from within for a change should do so patiently, acknowledging the priesthood leadership and chain of command and supporting their leaders.

If you feel compelled to test the limits of authority, as Archaea described, then you probably aren't suited to attend BYU.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm very against this kind of sentiment and the sentiment behind the quote from then Ricks president Bednar.

This "my way or the highway" mentality is very close minded and anti-progress. Progress and positive change can be made from within by people at the bottom that can see the need for change that people at the top can't. In the same breath, the people moving from within for a change should do so patiently, acknowledging the priesthood leadership and chain of command and supporting their leaders.

This attitude is the focal point of Nazism, i.e., "let's have no disagreement in the ranks, only sing 'kumbaya my lord, kumbaya ...' ".

So, Jay and I agree. Change needs to occur by vigorous internal discussion, not external pressure.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If you feel compelled to test the limits of authority, as Archaea described, then you probably aren't suited to attend BYU.

I wouldn't say I feel compelled to "test the limits of authority". But I do believe in voicing my opinion to encourage a change from within a system where I see problems.

I think if everyone who ever attended BYU accepted the sentiment of "if you don't like it leave or never come here in the first place", then BYU today would be a much worse place for it.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If that's the case, then don't enroll at BYU. BYU is not a birthright nor a saving ordinance.

P.S. Your repeated hyperbole (robots, Nazi, toothpaste, etc.) does nothing to strengthen your point.

You mean hyperbole like..."Sheer lunacy..."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

You mean hyperbole like..."Sheer lunacy..."

Are you offering your expertise in the field of lunacy?