A question for the Orthodox:

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I don't believe he is left out of the equation at all. Several apostles have indicated (including Andersen, most recently) that many minorities could serve in the 12, and yet they don't. That suggests the issue isn't with God approving the minorities, but with a lack of minority names being taken to God for approval. Or are you suggesting that God is rejecting all minority names for appointment to the 12? If so, come out and say it.

What about the scenario where a name isn't proposed to God, but instead God proposes the name? Is that really that infeasible? If that is at least possible, then in that scenario, God has effectively ruled out other worthy people, minorities included, for the time being.

I realize that is the antithesis of the Archaea-laissez-faire-rubber-stamping-God model, but that's even more reason to suspect it might be the truth.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

What about the scenario where a name isn't proposed to God, but instead God proposes the name? Is that really that infeasible? If that is at least possible, then in that scenario, God has effectively ruled out other worthy people, minorities included, for the time being.

I realize that is the antithesis of the Archaea-laissez-faire-rubber-stamping-God model, but that's even more reason to suspect it might be the truth.

Ah, so we are back to that now, are we? Back to the fact that not a single apostle has ever been called with whom the prophet wasn't totally familiar, back to Tex's suggestion that God must be placing future apostles in the prophet's path for some unknown reason (does He think the prophet won't obey and name the apostle unless the prophet knows the apostle really really well)?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

How so? Several apostles have noted that many minorities are fully qualified to be apostles, but they have never been called. Is God rejecting them, then? Not if you believe the statements from the apostles, as presumably the only qualification for appointment to the 12 is that God says "yes." That leaves us with really two options: 1) the names aren't being taken to God for approval; or 2) the apostles are lying and there really aren't any qualified minorities to serve.

Again, no minorities ever called to the 12. Several apostles say many minorities could be called to the 12. Still no minorities ever called. Is it your position that God is rejecting all minority names presented to him? Say what you believe, for once.

The proposition that being qualified amounts to an entitlement is absurd.

And your two options are absurdly reductionist as well.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Ah, so we are back to that now, are we? Back to the fact that not a single apostle has ever been called with whom the prophet wasn't totally familiar, back to Tex's suggestion that God must be placing future apostles in the prophet's path for some unknown reason (does He think the prophet won't obey and name the apostle unless the prophet knows the apostle really really well)?

Heh. Not for "some unknown reason." Rather, for the purpose of calling him as an apostle.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Ah, so we are back to that now, are we? Back to the fact that not a single apostle has ever been called with whom the prophet wasn't totally familiar, back to Tex's suggestion that God must be placing future apostles in the prophet's path for some unknown reason (does He think the prophet won't obey and name the apostle unless the prophet knows the apostle really really well)?

I'm amused by the implication of that statement, which is that the prophet effectively lives in a hermetically sealed office at the top of the Church Office Building with no real exposure to people from all over the world nor is in touch with the many Apostles and Seventies that likewise are spread over the face of the earth administering the affairs of the church.

The prophet is actively aware of who is doing the heavy lifting around the world and a failure to call a minority as an Apostle isn't due to some congenital insularity disorder.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Heh. Not for "some unknown reason." Rather, for the purpose of calling him as an apostle.

Why? It is an unknown reason precisely because it God hands the prophet the name, the fact of any relationship between the prophet and the future apostle is totally irrelevant. The man will be called even if the prophet has never heard of him in his life, because that is what God said to do. The purpose can't be so the individual will be called as an apostle. The calling is already a given. Hence, the purpose is unknown.

Still no answer to my question above. Typical Glen.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'm amused by the implication of that statement, which is that the prophet effectively lives in a hermetically sealed office at the top of the Church Office Building with no real exposure to people from all over the world nor is in touch with the many Apostles and Seventies that likewise are spread over the face of the earth administering the affairs of the church.

The prophet is actively aware of who is doing the heavy lifting around the world and a failure to call a minority as an Apostle isn't due to some congenital insularity disorder.

Explain your reason for the failure, Indy. God doesn't want minorities in the 12?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

The proposition that being qualified amounts to an entitlement is absurd.

And your two options are absurdly reductionist as well.

Who said it is an entitlement? They are qualified. They aren't being called. Why? The fact that there is a 100% correlation throughout the history of the church to the calling and to one's race seems to indicate the answer may have something to do with race.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Explain your reason for the failure, Indy. God doesn't want minorities in the 12?

1. I believe God has an active role in the calling of Apostles

2. I don't know the mind of God


Therefore, I have no explanation.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

1. I believe God has an active role in the calling of Apostles

2. I don't know the mind of God


Therefore, I have no explanation.

Because I will assume perhaps incorrectly that you have not actively participated in the selection process, why do you believe God "has an active role in the calling of Apostles"?