Barry Bonds broke the HR record

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by surfah33

Find me a one conclusive study that shows steroids helps you hit more homeruns.

Really he has only had the one monster year and has been pretty consistent otherwise though his HR numbers have steadily climbed. But also so have his walks. He's a patient hitter and will take a walk. This gives him more opportunities to get better pitches because he'll wait for his and not take the bat off his shoulder forcing pitchers to throw strikes.

Tell me who has had more 50+ HR seasons, Mantle or Bonds?

People make it seem like Bonds has been hitting 73 every year. When in reality that was the only season he's hit more than 50. You're going to tell me that steroids was the reason for that single blow up? That season has done more to indict Bonds than anything else. If he had only hit 50 that year and were still trailing Hank there wouldn't be nearly the discussion about it that there is now.

Then why do players take them then?

To do what?

If he didn't think they'd make/help him hit more homeruns and enhance his performance in other areas of the game as well then honestly..why take them?

Kinda makes the whole "Show me one conclusive study" crap a very moot point.

[MikeWaters]

I'm just pointing out that there is no point in arguing with someone that thinks performance-enhancing drugs aren't performance-enhancing.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

It's not an isolated trend with baseball players Lebowski.

Look at Clemens numbers pre-33 and post 38, he went from a washed up pitcher to being the most dominant right hander to probably ever pitch. Jamie Moyer still performs at 900, Julio Franco looks great at 1000, Sosa can still rake a year removed and a year older, the Gambler can still throw, as can the Braves triple head. (Now these guys aren't performing, save Clemens at the level Bonds did, point was it wouldn't surprise me if A-Rod, Howard, Fielder are still bombing in the late 30's)

Baseball players are extending their prime playing years by 3 years because of nutrition, work ethic, and trainers. When I was a kid baseball players didn't lift weights because it ruined their ability to play. Now they are extremely ripped and not solely because of PED.

Whoa. You are back to this argument? Amazing.

Tell me, Fus. What exercise or training regiment does a middle-aged man do to make his head size increase so dramatically over such a short period of time? Or his foot size?

[SteelBlue]

I highly suspect Clemens used. I sometimes wonder if he doesn't use the first couple months of the season each year to cycle off, pretending he can't decide if he still wants to play.

Here's a blurb from a 2005 article questioning why Bonds gets all the scrutiny and Clemens gets none:


"In his tell-all book, "Juiced; Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits, and How Baseball Got Big," Jose Canseco wrote: "I've never seen Roger Clemens do steroids, and he never told me that he did. But we've talked about what steroids could do for you, in which combinations."
He also said Clemens showed "classic signs" of steroid use.
Clemens' agent, Randy Hendricks was furious. "He has passed all tests and will continue to do so in 2005."
The same tests Bonds passed."

[Ma'ake]

I read an informed article a couple of years ago that claimed steroids may have increased pitching velocity by 2 or 3 mph, but the biggest improvement for pitchers was a quicker & better recovery between starts.

So, Bonds faced his era's best pitching more often than did Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron. (Not to mention he's been walked more than Ruth & Aaron... combined.)

Here's a balanced, reasoned position on Barry Bonds:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20185131/

In a nutshell, Bonds is the greatest hitter of his era. Aaron is the greatest of his, Ruth is the best of his. We can't really determine who is best overall because the game has changed so much over time. Ruth had a 295 foot right field fence, Aaron played in the "live ball" era, Bonds has the benefit of not just PED, but more sophisticated nutrition, better training techniques, etc.

My favorite era peculiarity was the early era when the gloves were just barely bigger than a man's hand (which puts Kevin Mitchell's famous bare handed catch of a long line drive appear not so incredible. LOL)

[8ballrollin]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I read an informed article a couple of years ago that claimed steroids may have increased pitching velocity by 2 or 3 mph, but the biggest improvement for pitchers was a quicker & better recovery between starts.

So, Bonds faced his era's best pitching more often than did Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron. (Not to mention he's been walked more than Ruth & Aaron... combined.)

Here's a balanced, reasoned position on Barry Bonds:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20185131/

In a nutshell, Bonds is the greatest hitter of his era. Aaron is the greatest of his, Ruth is the best of his. We can't really determine who is best overall because the game has changed so much over time. Ruth had a 295 foot right field fence, Aaron played in the "live ball" era, Bonds has the benefit of not just PED, but more sophisticated nutrition, better training techniques, etc.

My favorite era peculiarity was the early era when the gloves were just barely bigger than a man's hand (which puts Kevin Mitchell's famous bare handed catch of a long line drive appear not so incredible. LOL)

I concur with your post. Also remember if Willie Mays hadn't played at the Stick he'd have a lot more HRs too.

[SteelBlue]

8ball, it hurts just looking at your icon.

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Then why do players take them then?

To do what?

If he didn't think they'd make/help him hit more homeruns and enhance his performance in other areas of the game as well then honestly..why take them?

Kinda makes the whole "Show me one conclusive study" crap a very moot point.

Hey if you believe steroids helped Bonds hit all those homeruns then the onus is on you to prove it. I never said Bonds didn't take steroids. I never said that PEDs didn't enhance your performance. I said the benefit of PEDs in a sport like baseball aren't as great as it would be in a sport like football or cycling. Especially for a hitter. I said no one can claim to what extent steroids have helped Bonds and I hold the opinion that steroids didn't help Bonds hit as many homeruns as you all think they did.

But if you're of the opinion that he took steroids and is a cheater. That's fine too. Personally, I believe that people just hate Bonds because he's an asshole and the steroid allegations just show he's a cheating asshole. Vilifying him even worse. Kind of like Kobe is an arrogant prick. But also a cheating arrogant prick. Or rapist according to Rocky since he's judge and jury in all things too.

I mean what would make people happy. An asterisk? His record thrown out? I just don't understand everyone on their high horse with steroids. Half this board are cyclists. You all don't see the irony in that? I mean if everyone feels that strongly about the use, or abuse I should say, I wonder what you all would do if you found out that a number of Cougars were using PEDs. Should they be kicked out of school? Should their records be erased? Asterisks? I doubt any of you would want to look that closely for fear of what you might find.

If Bonds ever tests positive or if anymore evidence comes forth that convicts him, suspend him per the rules, and then you can do what you want with his records. Until then they should stand regardless of suspicion.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by surfah33

I believe that people just hate Bonds because he's an asshole and the steroid allegations just show he's a cheating asshole.

Bingo.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by surfah33

Hey if you believe steroids helped Bonds hit all those homeruns then the onus is on you to prove it. I never said Bonds didn't take steroids. I never said that PEDs didn't enhance your performance. I said the benefit of PEDs in a sport like baseball aren't as great as it would be in a sport like football or cycling. Especially for a hitter. I said no one can claim to what extent steroids have helped Bonds and I hold the opinion that steroids didn't help Bonds hit as many homeruns as you all think they did.

But if you're of the opinion that he took steroids and is a cheater. That's fine too. Personally, I believe that people just hate Bonds because he's an asshole and the steroid allegations just show he's a cheating asshole. Vilifying him even worse. Kind of like Kobe is an arrogant prick. But also a cheating arrogant prick. Or rapist according to Rocky since he's judge and jury in all things too.

I mean what would make people happy. An asterisk? His record thrown out? I just don't understand everyone on their high horse with steroids. Half this board are cyclists. You all don't see the irony in that? I mean if everyone feels that strongly about the use, or abuse I should say, I wonder what you all would do if you found out that a number of Cougars were using PEDs. Should they be kicked out of school? Should their records be erased? Asterisks? I doubt any of you would want to look that closely for fear of what you might find.

If Bonds ever tests positive or if anymore evidence comes forth that convicts him, suspend him per the rules, and then you can do what you want with his records. Until then they should stand regardless of suspicion.

You just wrote 4 paragraphs and didn't answer any of my questions.