Let this cup pass from me

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by creekster

It was from the Garden, but I understood the discussion in Ehrman's book to be limited to the passages about the blood from pores. I will check again and see if I am in error. Maybe I read the book too quickly. Thanks for the reminder.

I'm sure you're correct. My mistake.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by creekster

But aren't doubts the antithesis of faith? How could Christ have perfect faith if he doubted his mission, or even doubted his desire to complete it? Christ's sacrifice was perfect because he was perfect. If sin is the state of acting or being in a manner that is inconsistent with God's will, then isn't asking to be relieved of the burden of the atonement when you are on the precipice of performing that great event an act that is inconsistent with His will?

DO not misunderstand me, btw, I don't doubt Christ, I just have a hard time understanding this particular scripture, and always have.

I don't think doubt is the antithesis of faith anymore than fear is the antithesis of courage. Courage is action inspite of fear. Faith is belief inspite of doubt.

I think what Cali says is right. What does Christ's sacrifice mean in the end if he never had desires of his own or never experienced temptation? If he only ever desired to do the Father's will, what was there for him to overcome? What did he have to master? My guess is that Christ (just gospel according to me) experienced desires and temptations far beyond what we can easy comprehend simply by virtue of the literally incomprehensible power he wielded, even in mortality. When Satan tempts Him, he tempts Him to use that power (or so say the gospels). I think that ever greater self mastery was required of Him than of any of us.

In any case, I think that Christ's statement of personal desire and supplication to the will of the father juxtaposed against the performance of the atonement which immediately followed shows that he is both more like us than we imagine and simultaneously more perfect than us all.

Again, just gospel according to me, but my guess is that the mortal Jesus was far more like us that we imagine in terms of his wants and needs. That He, even in mortality, was diety made things harder for him and not easier which makes what He did with His life all the more amazing.

[ute4ever]

I find it very reasonable that the reason Christ volunteered to be our savior was because he understood he was the only person who would be able to accomplish it. Perhaps he was not singing Zippadee-Doo-Dah at the idea, but rather a significant part of him regretted knowing he would be the man of sorrows, his life would be one trial after the other and he would bear such great agony in the end.

Perhaps knowing that Lucifer, with all of his pride and selfishness, would be the only other person to step up to the plate, was the boost to put Christ over the top in volunteering, because he understood the plan would fail otherwise.

And when the moment finally came when he was on his knees in Gethsemane and bleeding with agony, that he essentially said oh enough already, daddy please stop this pain.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I don't think doubt is the antithesis of faith anymore than fear is the antithesis of courage. Courage is action inspite of fear. Faith is belief inspite of doubt.

I think what Cali says is right. What does Christ's sacrifice mean in the end if he never had desires of his own or never experienced temptation? If he only ever desired to do the Father's will, what was there for him to overcome? What did he have to master? My guess is that Christ (just gospel according to me) experienced desires and temptations far beyond what we can easy comprehend simply by virtue of the literally incomprehensible power he wielded, even in mortality. When Satan tempts Him, he tempts Him to use that power (or so say the gospels). I think that ever greater self mastery was required of Him than of any of us.

In any case, I think that Christ's statement of personal desire and supplication to the will of the father juxtaposed against the performance of the atonement which immediately followed shows that he is both more like us than we imagine and simultaneously more perfect than us all.

Again, just gospel according to me, but my guess is that the mortal Jesus was far more like us that we imagine in terms of his wants and needs. That He, even in mortality, was diety made things harder for him and not easier which makes what He did with His life all the more amazing.

Right. There "must" be opposition in all things. No humility without desire. No love without hate.

I am sure Christ had all of those emotions. He simply controlled them perfectly. Emotion isn't a sin, IMO.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Right. There "must" be opposition in all things. No humility without desire. No love without hate.

I am sure Christ had all of those emotions. He simply controlled them perfectly. Emotion isn't a sin, IMO.

But that is exactly the point. If in the Garden he sincerely asks for the cup to pass, then he did not control them perfectly. Instead, he had doubt creep in at the very moment when it might acutally do the most damage. If he had no doubt, then why ask the question?

Can you have perfect faith and still doubt? How is that possible?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by creekster

But that is exactly the point. If in the Garden he sincerely asks for the cup to pass, then he did not control them perfectly. Instead, he had doubt creep in at the very moment when it might acutally do the most damage. If he had no doubt, then why ask the question?

Can you have perfect faith and still doubt? How is that possible?

Is a precatory expression necessarily one of uncertainty?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Is a precatory expression necessarily one of uncertainty?

IN this context how would it be otherwise? Was it meaningless? Did it not mean what it says? How do you say that, at that time and not doubt?

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by creekster

But that is exactly the point. If in the Garden he sincerely asks for the cup to pass, then he did not control them perfectly. Instead, he had doubt creep in at the very moment when it might acutally do the most damage. If he had no doubt, then why ask the question?

Can you have perfect faith and still doubt? How is that possible?

I think the essential part of this that we need to take into account here is the phrase that comes before the one we're discussing and that is of course..."If it be thy will."

On a far lesser scale, how many times have we made an inquiry of God where in our own way, we're asking for the cup to pass...if it be his will...knowing full well that it is unlikely that our wants and desires for our adversity to pass are in fact not his will at all.

Christ had the same experience, but he was dealing with the ultimate sacrifice and while he knew that there was no other way, the human side of him, the side that laughed, cried, showed humility and many other emotions still gave him a need to ask the question.

Christ came down here under the pretense that he was here to do the father's will. While he was far greater than any man who has lived or will live on the earth, he still had human aspects to him. This experience illustrates that point exactly...he was here on his father's errand, he knew what he had to do, and yet he still asked...just in case his father's will had changed...but he knew it hadn't.

[creekster]

Thanks for the input. Perhaps I have been coming at this incorrectly.