My opinion on the change in the honor code

[mpfunk]

I just think it is interesting that the honor code office cares more about facial hair then predatory practices of BYU approved housing owners.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

The principles underlying the Honor Code lie at the foundation of what BYU is about. Just so we don't wander too far from what we're talking about here, let's make sure we know what we're raging against:

1. Be honest
2. Obey the law and all campus policies
3. Live a chaste and virtuous life
4. Respect others
5. Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
6. Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code
7. Observe Dress and Grooming Standards
8. Participate regularly in church services
9. Use clean language

Some pretty radical concepts there ... certainly well worth the rancor, don't you think?

So what does this have to do with the need for an HC office? Maybe we should have temple recommend bureaus in every stake too. I mean for all we know there are liars attending the temple with us right? It's not enough to answer the recommend questions with ones honor on the line. We need somebody to police the people lest our standards be meaningless.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Hey, Tex. Welcome to CG.

Originally Posted by Tex

It is illogical for a person to spend years pursuing citizenship under a democracy and then criticize its principles, yes.

Isn't that one of the wonderful things about a democracy? The ability to openly voice dissent? At what point do we allow new citizens to promote change?

Originally Posted by Tex

The principles underlying the Honor Code lie at the foundation of what BYU is about. Just so we don't wander too far from what we're talking about here, let's make sure we know what we're raging against:

1. Be honest
2. Obey the law and all campus policies
3. Live a chaste and virtuous life
4. Respect others
5. Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
6. Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code
7. Observe Dress and Grooming Standards
8. Participate regularly in church services
9. Use clean language

Some pretty radical concepts there ... certainly well worth the rancor, don't you think?

As Creekster points out, you have missed the whole point of the debate. It is not the principles that are being debated but the manner in which adherence to said principles is enforced.

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by Tex

Woo hoo! Nice ad hominem there, Funk! Bravo!

You could also just say, "Uncle!"

BYU Law School has a reputation of being extremely cutthroat in its competition between students. With this cutthroat atmosphere you really need more policies in place to police possible cheating.

This was not meant as a negative about BYU law school, just a reality of what the atmosphere at BYU is really like. You cultivate at atmosphere like BYU has right now, it makes it harder to put trust in the students that they will obey the rules.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

As Creekster points out, you have missed the whole point of the debate. It is not the principles that are being debated but the manner in which adherence to said principles is enforced.

Perhaps. I think there's more than just a little element of the juvenile "don't tell me what to do" attitude pervasive in the comments, though. No one wants to actually say they have a problem with "be honest" but as soon as I see Archaea invoke the word "iconoclast" I begin to wonder if it's something more.

I start to think that arguing enforcement is just a way to argue the principles by proxy.

And speaking of missing the point, I'll add: the citizenship analogy stretches beyond it's usefulness as soon as we start talking about democracy. Yes, it's wonderful that people can voice dissent in a democracy, but that's not the issue here. BYU is not a democracy. Ditto the temple recommend analogy. BYU is not the Church. You have to address the institution on the face of it, for what it is: an educational entity with religious ties.

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Hey, Tex. Welcome to CG.



Isn't that one of the wonderful things about a democracy? The ability to openly voice dissent? At what point do we allow new citizens to promote change?



As Creekster points out, you have missed the whole point of the debate. It is not the principles that are being debated but the manner in which adherence to said principles is enforced.

Exactly it is not the principles we are attacking it is the manner of enforcement. BYU cost me thousands of dollars in overcharged rent and cleaning fees that were never done because of its approved housing requirement. Explain to me how requiring me to live in a restricted housing market, that allowed for significant abuse by landlords, helped to bring about the principles that Tex stated.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mpfunk

Exactly it is not the principles we are attacking it is the manner of enforcement. BYU cost me thousands of dollars in overcharged rent and cleaning fees that were never done because of its approved housing requirement. Explain to me how requiring me to live in a restricted housing market, that allowed for significant abuse by landlords, helped to bring about the principles that Tex stated.

And messy dorm rooms constitute reasons for academic censure. I wonder if they check to see you clean your underwear regularly as well.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

Ditto the temple recommend analogy. BYU is not the Church. You have to address the institution on the face of it, for what it is: an educational entity with religious ties.

I used that analogy more to contrast a true honor code with a policed honor code. The ecclesiastical system is already in place at BYU to handle honor code infractions.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by mpfunk

Exactly it is not the principles we are attacking it is the manner of enforcement. BYU cost me thousands of dollars in overcharged rent and cleaning fees that were never done because of its approved housing requirement. Explain to me how requiring me to live in a restricted housing market, that allowed for significant abuse by landlords, helped to bring about the principles that Tex stated.

Funk, while I went to BYU, I was a realtor on the side. I've owned BYU-approved housing before. I'm familiar with the issues. What exactly the h*** are you talking about. Thousands of dollars? Significant abuse?

[mpfunk]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Funk, while I went to BYU, I was a realtor on the side. I've owned BYU-approved housing before. I'm familiar with the issues. What exactly the h*** are you talking about. Thousands of dollars? Significant abuse?

First off the price in the first place is significantly higher than it should be. I lived in a 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment. We were paying nearly $1000 a month between the 4 of us in that apartment. When I moved to SLC I got a 3 bedroom house in Sugarhouse to rent for less money. The plain fact that BYU restricts the housing market available to you, significantly drives up the price of housing. I have never had it cost more to live than it did in Provo. Currently the 2 bedroom house that I am living in here in Portland, would cost less for 4 people than the apartments I had in Provo. So by my count I was at least $100 bucks a month too much in rent.

One of my apartments would consistently schedule cleaning checks around midterms and finals. This made it not worth doing the cleaning check and just taking the fee. We were then charged a cleaning fee, this cleaning was never actually done. I think it generally was an additional $25 a month we were paying for cleaning that wasn't done.

In one of my apartment's we never once used the oven, not even for a frozen pizza. No one in the apartment cooked. The month before we left we were charged for oven cleaning. When we moved out we were charged for the oven not being clean, despite the fact it was not once used since the cleaning was done.

We had a mouse die in the pipes that led to the dishwasher, and it was an area we couldn't get to unless we kind tore things out. Every time we ran the dishwasher the place would stink. We informed the landlord multiple times about this problem and he refused to do anything. Also the heater when turned on would put out a stench and a little black smoke, so we couldn't use the heater (not that we really needed it often). We also informed the landlord about this and nothing was done about. We didn't have any of this fixed until we decided to withhold our rent. We finally got it fixed, but we were still charged late fees for our rent for that month.

There was a problem in the complex that caused all the ground floor apartments to have the toilets back up. Luckily it didn't involve any sewage. The apartment's solution to this was to come in take out the carpet and leave the floor bare for the last month we lived there.

So between non-existent cleaning fees, ridiculously high rent because of BYU's policy, and all the shit I put up with. Yes I would say that we were getting screwed by the policy, and I consider the money it cost me in increased rent prices to be at least $2,000 (and that is a conservative estimate).