Of the many things I am thankful for

[fusnik11]

I appreciate your thoughts Too, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by surfah33

I understand your point and I think the matter lies in regards to restitution for the sin. While we can argue if one sin is greater than another (in fact I think we already have a few pages back), each sin differs greatly from another based on intent, knowledge, repitition, etc. For something like missed home teaching, I think the Lord allows us to set the terms of restitution. But for more grievous sins, not committing them again is not enough and requires a judge that He has picked to discern what the restitution should be. Sometimes that may require not being entitled to exercise the priesthood and sometimes excommunication.

I'm enjoying this exchange and hope you don't mind some additional back and forth on this. I think this idea of restitution that you and others are articultating is an interesting one and I'm not totally sure what you mean. I don't want to jump the gun on this so let me ask you: restitution to whom?

Originally Posted by surfah33

I am not a justice guy really, and I know that is how some of my posts on this topic may be perceived. I do know that while the atonement is infinite, it is not a blanket we throw over ourselves by merely accepting Christ. It's through accepting Him as a debtor and the terms of that debt and that it is only through His grace that any of us can return to live with the Father.

I agree with what you just said here, but I'm still fuzzy on why that transaction cannot be conducted with Him directly, or as to why i can in some cases but not others.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I FIRMLY believe that the proceedings are guided by the Spirit. Actually I don't believe, I know it.

Two people could have committed the same sin and go to a church court for the same thing, and receive completely different judgements. It is GUIDED by the Spirit.

Except for when it isn't. I am aware of one Bishop who was released over his conduct in such a proceeding. Certainly that is the exception. I doun't doubt that most are sincerely seeking the spirit, I just doubt its necessity.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Except for when it isn't. I am aware of one Bishop who was released over his conduct in such a proceeding. Certainly that is the exception. I doun't doubt that most are sincerely seeking the spirit, I just doubt its necessity.

I'd agree with this too. Sometimes Bishops go too far in this regard, but it's the rare exception, not the rule

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I'm enjoying this exchange and hope you don't mind some additional back and forth on this. I think this idea of restitution that you and others are articultating is an interesting one and I'm not totally sure what you mean. I don't want to jump the gun on this so let me ask you: restitution to whom?

That's a good question UtahDan. The answer seems easy when the sin involves an offense against a particular someone. I believe the best answer is restitution to our Father in Heaven for trespassing his law. Our sins are an offense to him. I think that's why the Miracle of Forgiveness is so poignant despite popular criticisms of the work. Our sin is against God, the most benevolent and loving being in the entire universe. We have offended the one being who has nothing but compassion for us. The fact that he can and does forgive us truly is a miracle. The Savior then sets the terms of that restitution because he accepted our sins. The Bishops are the arbiters in the process as they have been appointed as such.

Why can't we work it out on our own? I guess because we are instructed and commanded to confess our sins. I don't think the Bishop's role is a mediator between us and the Savior but rather someone to help put the offense in perspective so that the right recompense is given.

Will this change? Perhaps, someday when Heavenly Father seems fit to do so. I think we have changed in some aspects already as the sin is not confessed publicly before the church as it once was. But I do believe that the process in place now is inspired and ordained of God. And like I mentioned in response to Jay's post, should a revelation be made to move away from current procedure, that doesn't mean that the process was unauthorized during its implementation irrespective of what man may think.

I don't know if I have answered your question satisfactorily. I have enjoyed this exchange too. To think at one time I thought you were solely capable of talking trash on the basketball court.