Dehlin and Kate Kelly Face Possible Excommunication - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

ChinoCoug · 06-11-2014, 08:40 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/us...unication.html

Crap. I hope this isn't some whim of a Stake President and the Brethren have made calculations.

ChinoCoug · 06-11-2014, 08:49 PM

I think this differs from Sept 6 in that those people published stuff the Church disapproved, which they Church now allows, and they didn't disrupt people when they were worshiping.

MikeWaters · 06-11-2014, 08:52 PM

The Ordain Women thing doesn't surprise me. They want to nip that in the bud. They no doubt have been upset about the protests and all the media attention they have received.

Cut off the head and maybe you kill the beast. Or alternatively, like a hydra, it grows new heads.

Dehlin. I follow him at the barest of margins. Meaning that I don't generally read what he writes, I've only listened to one or two podcasts, but of course I've heard a lot about him and read articles in which he is quoted. I feel like I know him, internet-speaking, second-hand. And I've never had a good impression of him. I see him as more snake than not.

Having said that, if the basis of excommunication is public profession of doubt regarding truth claims of the church, gosh, that's a real stretch for excommunication. We're going to excommunicate people for weak testimonies?

The real argument may be that they think Dehlin is out there actively trying to weaken testimonies. That he is really an anti- in sheep's clothing. I don't follow him closely enough to know.

Like times before, the church is willing to take a PR hit when they feel they have to. This is the first round.

The ire of liberal Mormons may increase much more if they go after someone like Joanna Brooks.

MikeWaters · 06-11-2014, 09:14 PM

Kate Kelly's statement:

http://ordainwomen.org/excommunication/

She is going to be tried in absentia.

I'm glad I'm not a stake president. Or on a high council.

On the other hand, maybe high councils need more people like me.

ChinoCoug · 06-11-2014, 09:56 PM

I think I'm in Kate Kelly's old stake.

Archaea · 06-11-2014, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Kate Kelly's statement:

http://ordainwomen.org/excommunication/

She is going to be tried in absentia.

I'm glad I'm not a stake president. Or on a high council.

On the other hand, maybe high councils need more people like me.

It would be interesting for you to serve.

MikeWaters · 06-12-2014, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea

It would be interesting for you to serve.

I'm too heterodox to be trusted to positions of authority.

MikeWaters · 06-12-2014, 04:11 AM

I feel unsettled about the direction the church is headed in:

1. De-emphasizing original Mormonism and the restoration and Joseph Smith and the aspects of belief that are heretical to mainstream Christianity.

2. Lack of growth. I think a lot of this, probably most of this, is just the trend of the world. We are not living in a religious age.

3. Defining ourselves around the politics of gay marriage. Why in the world would we want to do that?

4. Just the sense that we are treading water, that we could swim, but we're just not sure which way to swim.

5. My fear that the core of the church membership = members of cougarboard. I like the average church member. I think I can make peace with the average church member. But I want more than the average church member. I want people like me. Part of this whole internet/cougarguard experience has been testing the notion--are there people like me? Yes there certainly are. A lot of them. But maybe people like me don't have a robust place in this church. Will we ever? And what would that mean? To be a modest believer is something. It's a big thing. It means that you are a BELIEVER. And let's face it, there aren't that many out there. Modest because faith entertains doubt and vice versa. If God didn't want me to have any doubt, he'd have removed it from me. Maybe God wanted me to struggle and that was part of the whole thing. That the struggle is good. The scriptures teach of the gift of faith. It's a gift. It's not something that is earned. It's not available to everyone. Some people have it, some people don't. Some have the gift of believing those that have the gift of faith. There will be those among us, and even ourselves perhaps, that do not have these gifts. We have other gifts. And that's ok. You're here? Stay here. You're not here? Join us. This conversation about the excommunicated is going to be one-sided. The church will not speak, but many will speak for the church in ways that endorse their politics and philosophies that have nothing to do with Christ and his gospel. That's the shame. Each of us must act according to our conscience, with humility, always recognizing that there may be a better way. This court or that court--who cares--God will judge. And some may be surprised at the final outcomes.

ChinoCoug · 06-12-2014, 08:35 PM

Dam I can't stand Cougarboard right now.

ChinoCoug · 06-12-2014, 09:26 PM

Dehlin has a track record of leading people away from the Church. Kate Kelly doesn't.

06-11-2014, 08:40 PM	#1
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Dehlin and Kate Kelly Face Possible Excommunication http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/us...unication.html Crap. I hope this isn't some whim of a Stake President and the Brethren have made calculations.

06-11-2014, 08:49 PM	#2
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	I think this differs from Sept 6 in that those people published stuff the Church disapproved, which they Church now allows, and they didn't disrupt people when they were worshiping.

06-11-2014, 08:52 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	The Ordain Women thing doesn't surprise me. They want to nip that in the bud. They no doubt have been upset about the protests and all the media attention they have received. Cut off the head and maybe you kill the beast. Or alternatively, like a hydra, it grows new heads. Dehlin. I follow him at the barest of margins. Meaning that I don't generally read what he writes, I've only listened to one or two podcasts, but of course I've heard a lot about him and read articles in which he is quoted. I feel like I know him, internet-speaking, second-hand. And I've never had a good impression of him. I see him as more snake than not. Having said that, if the basis of excommunication is public profession of doubt regarding truth claims of the church, gosh, that's a real stretch for excommunication. We're going to excommunicate people for weak testimonies? The real argument may be that they think Dehlin is out there actively trying to weaken testimonies. That he is really an anti- in sheep's clothing. I don't follow him closely enough to know. Like times before, the church is willing to take a PR hit when they feel they have to. This is the first round. The ire of liberal Mormons may increase much more if they go after someone like Joanna Brooks.

06-11-2014, 09:14 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Kate Kelly's statement: http://ordainwomen.org/excommunication/ She is going to be tried in absentia. I'm glad I'm not a stake president. Or on a high council. On the other hand, maybe high councils need more people like me.

06-11-2014, 09:56 PM	#5
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	I think I'm in Kate Kelly's old stake.

06-12-2014, 04:11 AM	#8
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I feel unsettled about the direction the church is headed in: 1. De-emphasizing original Mormonism and the restoration and Joseph Smith and the aspects of belief that are heretical to mainstream Christianity. 2. Lack of growth. I think a lot of this, probably most of this, is just the trend of the world. We are not living in a religious age. 3. Defining ourselves around the politics of gay marriage. Why in the world would we want to do that? 4. Just the sense that we are treading water, that we could swim, but we're just not sure which way to swim. 5. My fear that the core of the church membership = members of cougarboard. I like the average church member. I think I can make peace with the average church member. But I want more than the average church member. I want people like me. Part of this whole internet/cougarguard experience has been testing the notion--are there people like me? Yes there certainly are. A lot of them. But maybe people like me don't have a robust place in this church. Will we ever? And what would that mean? To be a modest believer is something. It's a big thing. It means that you are a BELIEVER. And let's face it, there aren't that many out there. Modest because faith entertains doubt and vice versa. If God didn't want me to have any doubt, he'd have removed it from me. Maybe God wanted me to struggle and that was part of the whole thing. That the struggle is good. The scriptures teach of the gift of faith. It's a gift. It's not something that is earned. It's not available to everyone. Some people have it, some people don't. Some have the gift of believing those that have the gift of faith. There will be those among us, and even ourselves perhaps, that do not have these gifts. We have other gifts. And that's ok. You're here? Stay here. You're not here? Join us. This conversation about the excommunicated is going to be one-sided. The church will not speak, but many will speak for the church in ways that endorse their politics and philosophies that have nothing to do with Christ and his gospel. That's the shame. Each of us must act according to our conscience, with humility, always recognizing that there may be a better way. This court or that court--who cares--God will judge. And some may be surprised at the final outcomes.

06-12-2014, 08:35 PM	#9
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Dam I can't stand Cougarboard right now.

06-12-2014, 09:26 PM	#10
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Dehlin has a track record of leading people away from the Church. Kate Kelly doesn't.