Question, especially for you classicists

[All-American]

I am still juggling around different options regarding graduate schools and whatnot, but at this point, I am reasonably certain I would like to get a masters degree in classics, history, or something between the two. I have about another year until projected graduation in April of 2008, but I may procrastinate and wait until Fall 2008.

Question is this: what kinds of things ought I to be doing along the lines of internships, research, jobs in related fields, etc., that would be appealing to graduate schools? Where would I look for those sorts of things?

Or should I just give up trying to be smart and become a filthy rich lawyer instead?

Thoughts from all are welcome.

[MikeWaters]

do you have to get a masters? can you go straight to phd?

[BarbaraGordon]

My thoughts, for what they're worth:

The classics does not preclude the filthy rich lawyer.

Get your masters, but do a thesis option so you'll have a sense of what you'd be getting yourself into with a PhD. Then assess your goals and decide whether to go on to pursue the PhD or change tracks for something wealthier.

As far as what to focus on to boost your admission application: Establish a great relationship with a prof to get yourself a killer recommendation. If you can do a senior thesis (or something similar) with the same prof, even better.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

do you have to get a masters? can you go straight to phd?

I COULD go straight to PhD, but I'm not certain I want to. I'm thinking along the lines of what BarbaraGordon recommends: get a Masters and then go either for PhD or JD.

[danimal]

I can't think of a very good reason to get a phd in history or classics. The job market for those fields is horribly saturated and pays very poorly. If you're going to work you ass off for 5-7 years, you'd better be able to get a good job after.

Getting a master's isn't a bad idea since it's much less of a time commitment, although it would take probably close to the length of time that a jd would take if you do a research thesis. You could also consider doing a 4-year joint jd/ms program -- kill two birds with one stone.

[MikeWaters]

if you can't do anything with the phd, what are you going to do with the masters?

[YOhio]

AA:

Here is a good post that brings up some topics you may be thinking about.

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3779#more-3779

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

if you can't do anything with the phd, what are you going to do with the masters?

Spend some more time making most of us here look dumb.

[Archaea]

I don't anything about being a filthy rich lawyer or a classicist. However, I agree with Mike's observations that it makes no sense to get a Masters.

A Phd or JD, it's all good bs.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by All-American

I would like to get a masters degree in classics, history, or something between the two.

Question is this: what kinds of things ought I to be doing along the lines of internships, research, jobs in related fields, etc., that would be appealing to graduate schools? Where would I look for those sorts of things? .

Sorry I'm a little late to post on this thread. As someone who is in the middle of it, I have some thoughts that you're welcome to take or leave.

1. Most PhD programs will let you leave with a Master's if you decide it's not for you, so there's no problem enrolling in a PhD program, realizing you want out after a couple of years, and taking your Masters to the "Real World."

2. While the best programs are still the best programs. Berkeley, Yale, Chicago, etc. IMO, it's more important to get a good adviser than to be at "the program." Others mght disagree and really want the big name, but your adviser basically owns you. My adviser is Mark Munn, (who wrote The Defense of Attica, The School of History, and The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia) and he's great. I know he'll go to bat for me when I'm negotiating with my committee about my research, and he'll be an integral part of my job search when I'm done. I'm sure different people at different schools each have individual experiences, but an adviser will make or break your career. Some of the 'big name' schools have so many students (and faculty with such tremendous egos) that there are fairly poor relationships between students and their advisers. If you investigate schools, ask graduate students about their advisers. This, IMO, is the most important component of selecting a program. To find a potential adviser, I would recommend finding an author you enjoy in a field you're interested in (Ancient Greece, Bible, Roman poetry, whatever), finding out what school he/she is at, and checking out that school. It's a little counter-intuitive, since most people who shop for graduate schools go for the school name over individuals, but your name will be forever tied to your adviser's pedigree. I think I read somewhere that you're at the BYU; I'm sure John Hall would have some good advice for you. He's a good man and knows who and where people are.

3. Start thinking early on if you're more interested in philology, archaeology, etc. Lots of undergraduate programs have opportunities for students to dig. If your school doesn't, you should be able to find one through another school (Berkeley has several, I think; I know they're digging Nemea in Greece right now. Penn State is digging in Turkey and Egypt; Ohio State is at Isthmia in Greece; etc.) Again, your adviser should be able to help you hunt down a good dig, if you think that's where your interests lie.

4. No matter what, especially if you're more interested in the literary side of things, start hammering the languages. That's the #1 thing that keeps us in school (especially me since I got a late start). Greek and Latin are obvious. So are French and German. You usually have to test the two ancient languages and show reading proficiency (with a dictionary) in the modern languages. So, one thing you can do is get an early start on the languages. Textbooks designed to teach languages as reading-only are available.

5. You can always quit and go get a real job. I took a couple years off after my Master's (in ancient history) and I had no problem landing a job. Sure, it wasn't in ancient history, but it was a fine government job working in counter-terrorism. My employer didn't care that I had a Masters in ancient history. My employer only cared that I knew how to write well and could get the job done (and hadn't smoked weed). My advice is to not let the end goal detract from studying something you love. While a lot of people pick up commitments along life's way (marriage, children, etc.) and these make it hard to stick the course, stay with it as long as you can. It's understandable if you decide not to finish, and there's no shame in leaving an academic program if you've decided it's time to move on.

6. One more thing, if you are interested in "all of Greece" or "all of Rome," and haven't quite decided how or if to narrow your scope, check out a study abroad. I spent last summer at the American School of Classical Studies at Athens and it was unbelievable. Since it's been around so long (125 years this year), it has unparalleled access to the sites and monuments of ancient Greece (for instance, we had a 3 hour tour inside the remains of the Parthenon on the Acropolis. Ordinary tourists don't get within 50 feet). The ASCSA digs the Agora in Athens and a few other sites (e.g. Corinth) in Greece. Their library is the best Classics library in the world, and the faculty are the world experts. I know there are comparable programs for Roman studies too in Italy. I wish I had gone much earlier in my academic career. Both undergraduate and graduate students are in the summer program. I'm not sure if the year-long program is open to undergraduates or not.

In sum - Graduate schools are going to look at languages, writing ability, and field work (if you're going to do archaeology). If you're interested in interdisciplinary approaches, I would recommend you take a look at UCSB, Berkeley (a good program but HUGE amount of students), and Penn State. If you want to go more along the Classics side of things, any Ivy League is great. If you're interested in papyri, it's Duke and Michigan.

It's a lot to chew on right now, and you'll probably change your mind about your focus once you're in graduate school. I know I did (I've retreated in historical scope about 200 years and changed my topic considerably). In the end, though, you've got to do what you're interested in and let the rest fall as it will.

I know I'm waxing long here, but history (and to a lesser extent, Classics) is one of those fields that a lot of people like, but few people do professionally. This is both a blessing and a curse. It's great because a lot of people are interested in what you do, it's easy to start a conversation with someone who has seen 300, or Gladiator, or Troy, or read Antigone in high school. But it's also tough because people often think that, since they "do history" in their spare time, it's not a full-time career. I haven't run across anyone on this board with such an attitude (so I intend absolutely no offense to any poster/reader), but you should anticipate a few years of "what are you going to do with that?" It goes away, eventually (at least, it has for me), when people find out you're serious enough about the ancient world.

There's a certain degree of respect that comes as you live the life other people used to want when they were kids. (I think everyone wants to be an archaeologist when they're 10; that or a Ghostbuster.) I've spent summers digging up skeletons in Turkey. I spent last summer cruising through Greece. I've had a lot of people tell me they wish they could have done it. I don't have the heart to tell them that they could have, they just would have had to decide to live dirt-poor like me. To each his/her own, though, but don't be surprised if you generate some envy.