about Turkey and EU

[MikeWaters]

Do the Turks share the values of other EU members and vice versa?

I don't know the answer to the question.

[Mormon Red Death]

is it me or is this like Utah or Byu trying to join the pac10

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Do the Turks share the values of other EU members and vice versa?

I don't know the answer to the question.

Turkey is a massively divided country. There is a large islamic fundamental movement, but the political and economic elites and the (more importantly) Army have embraced secular values for about the last 70 years, stemming from the father of the modern Turkish state, Kemal Ataturk. But the rank and file Turk is not all that sympathetic to secularism. But Istanbul is a very modern city and

In addition, Turkey has a problem with a large Kurdish seperatist movement, with which the government has been known to crack down on very hard. The dealings with the Kurds, adn the attendant human rights abuses are a large part of the reason that Europe has been able to exclude the Turks from serious integration talks.

Recently, the Turkish state has made a serious legal commitment (practical application of this commitment may leave something to be desired) to the embrace of human rights and has dropped some of the de jure discrimination against Kurds. Ironically, many of these reforms came during the government of a moderate islamist, Erdogan (IIrC). It seems that the moderate Islamists (think moderately religious Christians) are perhaps the best hope for a more open embrace of European style values, because they have greater credibility with the average Turk. However, this makes Europe a little nervous.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

Some of that will be necessary. But would you not, if you were France or any other nation for that matter, rather have borders where people can go across and come back? If Turkey is brought into the EU that would by its very nature, lead to a norming of democratic institutions and probably mean a higher standard of living and education (although not necessarily high enough not to want to emigrate). Of course, none of this even mentions the potential security and symbolic benefits.

I don't disagree with your reasoning. I think it would be a good idea for the EU to welcome Turkey. The long-term benefits would be significant on most, if not all fronts; political, security, and economic. Turkey could be a very helpful bridge to a troubled region. However, everything I see suggests most Western Europeans are not thinking with a long-term perspective when it comes to Turkish ascension.

-- They look and see 2+ million Turks in Germany as well as expanding poor Islamic populations in their own countries (France is 10 percent Muslim now and growing) and fear the repercussions of open borders with Turkey.

-- They don't want to lose more jobs to another lower cost entrant (firms are already relocating to new members in Eastern Europe).

-- Intra-EU politics would become much more difficult and the impact might take Europe in a direction that current members don't want to go. Turkey would come in as the second most populace country in the EU, giving it immediate clout in EU institutions and policies, effectively diluting the power of France and Germany (France in particular since it would be supplanted as the second most populace EU member). In addition to the political and economic impacts, bringing in 70 million Turks, most of whom are religiously conservative, would heavily impact pan-European social policy.

-- And finally, as noted above, I see a certain amount of bigotry/racism involved in opposition to Turkey's entry. "Turkey is in Asia, not Europe!"

These attitudes can be changed, but I think there is going to have to be a lot of effort on the part of Western European elites as well as Turkey itself. I’m optimistic that in the end, Turkey will be granted entrance. But give current thinking in Western Europe, it’s going to take a long time. I wonder if the Turks are patient enough to wait that long.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

They don't want to lose more jobs to another lower cost entrant (firms are already relocating to new members in Eastern Europe).

Wow. Businesses outsourcing. Imagine that.

Does France blame Bush for this as well?

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Wow. Businesses outsourcing. Imagine that.

Does France blame Bush for this as well?

To the extent that Bush supports the free movement of goods and services across borders, then yes, I suppose they do. They'd do better to look inward for the source of their problems. A few reasons why firms might leave or skip over France for greener pastures east of here:

-- 35-hour work week and automatic five weeks of paid vacation per year.

-- Inability to let people go after they have worked for the firm for over six months. Even if the firm can prove just cause for letting someone go, it usually must pay some form of severance compensation. This also includes women that can go out on paid maternity leave for up to three years and are guaranteed to have the same job when they return. Try managing that personnel gap.

-- French trade unions that happily go on strike.

-- Heavy tax burden associated with sustaining generous social security system.

Opening that manufacturing plant in Poland suddenly looks much more attractive.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

To the extent that Bush supports the free movement of goods and services across borders, then yes, I suppose they do. They'd do better to look inward for the source of their problems. A few reasons why firms might leave or skip over France for greener pastures east of here:

-- 35-hour work week and automatic five weeks of paid vacation per year.

-- Inability to let people go after they have worked for the firm for over six months. Even if the firm can prove just cause for letting someone go, it usually must pay some form of severance compensation. This also includes women that can go out on paid maternity leave for up to three years and are guaranteed to have the same job when they return. Try managing that personnel gap.

-- French trade unions that happily go on strike.

-- Heavy tax burden associated with sustaining generous social security system.

Opening that manufacturing plant in Poland suddenly looks much more attractive.

I knew that French workers are famous for their strikes, but I didn't realize that businesses were as burdened by the government there as you mention.

Wow.

How much are firms taxed? How about the workforce?

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I knew that French workers are famous for their strikes, but I didn't realize that businesses were as burdened by the government there as you mention.

Wow.

How much are firms taxed? How about the workforce?

Here is a link comparing personal and corporate tax rates in Europe. As one might expect, Western European countries are well entrenched above the EU average in both categories. While France is not the worst, it holds its own among the leaders.

Taxation in the EU from 1995-2004

Moral of this story: Go east young man; or go to Ireland.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Here is a link comparing personal and corporate tax rates in Europe. As one might expect, Western European countries are well entrenched above the EU average in both categories. While France is not the worst, it holds its own among the leaders.

Taxation in the EU from 1995-2004

Moral of this story: Go east young man; or go to Ireland.

Hold on there. It depends on who you are. If you are a work a day schlub like me, then 35 hour work week (soon to be a thing of the past) with five weeks vacation, and maternity leave sound pretty good. I'd put up with a lot to have that type of schedule.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

Hold on there. It depends on who you are. If you are a work a day schlub like me, then 35 hour work week (soon to be a thing of the past) with five weeks vacation, and maternity leave sound pretty good. I'd put up with a lot to have that type of schedule.

How about 10 percent overall unemployment; 25 percent for those under 25 years of age; and even worse for minorities? This works great for the 85 percent of the population that manages to get a job, but what about the rest? Jobs aren't being created because firms opt not to come here or entrepreneurs opt to start up elsewhere. I know plenty of people, especially young people, that bounce from one temp job to the other, or have resigned themselves to unemployment. A total loss of productivity and efficiency. This eventually takes its toll on a nation.

The 35-hour work week will become a thing of the past only if employers are willing to compenesate their workers for those 4 extra hours a week. Currently employers must give workers 8 more vacation days a year to make up for those 4 extra hours (for a total of 6 1/2 weeks of paid vacation per year).

For the most part, employers will stick with the 35-hour work week.