LDS church worth - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Cali Coug · 09-03-2008, 07:57 PM

SU noted in another thread that a statement that the LDS church may have $5 billion cash on hand is "one of the most uninformed statements ever made on this site."

I did a quick google search to see what estimates were for LDS finances. Time Magazine and Mormon America (a book published in the '90's) both estimated the church's net worth at over $30 billion. Time estimated the church had annual revenues of $5.9 billion. The church incurs almost zero long-term debt, paying for most projects up front in cash.

The financing of City Creek Center, a $1.5 billion project, was 100% equity between the church and Taubman Centers (with the equity mix undisclosed to my knowledge).

http://nreionline.com/property/mixed...h_taking_0411/

$5 billion in cash available? I hardly think that is unrealistic.

Levin · 09-03-2008, 08:43 PM

I don't think it would be the Church's policy to horde cash like this. I would hope they'd have Buffett's philosophy, which is spend it or lose it. He told the Gates Foundation that they had to spend a certain percentage of his donation each year, all of which had to be spent within a certain time frame. I forget the exact numbers.

I think this should be the philosophy of the Church -- the tithes and offerings should be spent. Sure, there should be a nest egg for insurance purposes, but $5 billion would not be the appropriate size, IMO. Anyways, if tithing donations completely fall off a cliff, do we really think the tithes of years past should subsidize the less faithful church? Also, it shows a lack of faith to horde the money. Prudence says $1 billion, not $5 billion. I would have issues if that were the case.

TripletDaddy · 09-03-2008, 08:47 PM

I have always wondered if there were truth to the notion that the church really pays for everything up front.

Why would you hand someone 1.5B in cash up front? makes no sense. You get no yield on that money in the interim. I can see the Church not undertaking a capital investment without sufficient funds in their coffers before launch.....but the way the picture is painted, the Church shows up at the construction site on Day 1 and writes a $1.5B check, paying everything up front.

FMCoug · 09-03-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

Anyways, if tithing donations completely fall off a cliff, do we really think the tithes of years past should subsidize the less faithful church?

There are lots of reasons tithing dontations could fall without it being an issue of faithfulness. Economic calamity for example.

MikeWaters · 09-03-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMCoug

There are lots of reasons tithing dontations could fall without it being an issue of faithfulness. Economic calamity for example.

bingo.

and it is more than lawsuits that could be calamity.

Levin · 09-03-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I have always wondered if there were truth to the notion that the church really pays for everything up front.

Why would you hand someone 1.5B in cash up front? makes no sense. You get no yield on that money in the interim. I can see the Church not undertaking a capital investment without sufficient funds in their coffers before launch.....but the way the picture is painted, the Church shows up at the construction site on Day 1 and writes a $1.5B check, paying everything up front.

The church is not this naive.

I take the statement to mean: we take out loans to pay for capital projects (b/c it's prudent to do so), but we always have more in the bank than we owe -- hence, the line that the Church is not in debt. It does not mean they pay for cash on every capital project.

TripletDaddy · 09-03-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

The church is not this naive.

I take the statement to mean: we take out loans to pay for capital projects (b/c it's prudent to do so), but we always have more in the bank than we owe -- hence, the line that the Church is not in debt. It does not mean they pay for cash on every capital project.

I agree 100%, but do you not agree that it is never really worded that clearly?

It is always painted in the light that the Church "pays for everything up front," which is actually likely untrue. It would be more accurate to say that the Church budgets for everything up front and is always cash flow positive.

FMCoug · 09-03-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levin

The church is not this naive.

I take the statement to mean: we take out loans to pay for capital projects (b/c it's prudent to do so), but we always have more in the bank than we owe -- hence, the line that the Church is not in debt. It does not mean they pay for cash on every capital project.

Also keep in mind that "the Church" is somewhat of a misnomer when it comes to finances. There are numerous legal entities for various purposes. Corp of the Presiding Bishop, Corp of the President, Ensign ... and more.

Levin · 09-03-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I agree 100%, but do you not agree that it is never really worded that clearly?

It is always painted in the light that the Church "pays for everything up front," which is actually likely untrue. It would be more accurate to say that the Church budgets for everything up front and is always cash flow positive.

Agreed. But stating it this way is not quite as satisfying to the pious.

MikeWaters · 09-03-2008, 09:03 PM

If what FM said is true, then the church has spent more on the shopping mall project that it has in cash reserves. And maybe by a factor of 10.

09-03-2008, 07:57 PM	#1
Cali Coug Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,996	LDS church worth SU noted in another thread that a statement that the LDS church may have $5 billion cash on hand is "one of the most uninformed statements ever made on this site." I did a quick google search to see what estimates were for LDS finances. Time Magazine and Mormon America (a book published in the '90's) both estimated the church's net worth at over $30 billion. Time estimated the church had annual revenues of $5.9 billion. The church incurs almost zero long-term debt, paying for most projects up front in cash. The financing of City Creek Center, a $1.5 billion project, was 100% equity between the church and Taubman Centers (with the equity mix undisclosed to my knowledge). http://nreionline.com/property/mixed...h_taking_0411/ $5 billion in cash available? I hardly think that is unrealistic.

09-03-2008, 08:43 PM	#2
Levin Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,484	I don't think it would be the Church's policy to horde cash like this. I would hope they'd have Buffett's philosophy, which is spend it or lose it. He told the Gates Foundation that they had to spend a certain percentage of his donation each year, all of which had to be spent within a certain time frame. I forget the exact numbers. I think this should be the philosophy of the Church -- the tithes and offerings should be spent. Sure, there should be a nest egg for insurance purposes, but $5 billion would not be the appropriate size, IMO. Anyways, if tithing donations completely fall off a cliff, do we really think the tithes of years past should subsidize the less faithful church? Also, it shows a lack of faith to horde the money. Prudence says $1 billion, not $5 billion. I would have issues if that were the case. __________________ "Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12

09-03-2008, 08:47 PM	#3
TripletDaddy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 9,483	I have always wondered if there were truth to the notion that the church really pays for everything up front. Why would you hand someone 1.5B in cash up front? makes no sense. You get no yield on that money in the interim. I can see the Church not undertaking a capital investment without sufficient funds in their coffers before launch.....but the way the picture is painted, the Church shows up at the construction site on Day 1 and writes a $1.5B check, paying everything up front. __________________ Fitter. Happier. More Productive. "Everyone is against me. Everyone is fawning for 3D's attention and defending him." -- SeattleUte

09-03-2008, 09:03 PM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	If what FM said is true, then the church has spent more on the shopping mall project that it has in cash reserves. And maybe by a factor of 10.