The Vietnamese Napalm girl

[MikeWaters]

http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/in...am_Napalm_Girl

Interesting life story.

She has started a foundation.

http://www.kimfoundation.com/modules...file=intro.htm

She met one of the American pilots who bombed her, and forgave him.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/in...am_Napalm_Girl

Interesting life story.

She has started a foundation.

http://www.kimfoundation.com/modules...file=intro.htm

She met one of the American pilots who bombed her, and forgave him.

what a great soul !

I dont think i would forgive the Iraqi pilots who have cruelly bombarded us.

[Indy Coug]

Does Islam say that it is important to forgive?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/in...am_Napalm_Girl

Interesting life story.

She has started a foundation.

http://www.kimfoundation.com/modules...file=intro.htm

She met one of the American pilots who bombed her, and forgave him.

Read the story more carefully, as Plummer either "ordered" or "relayed" the bombing orders on Trang Bang.

It was a South Vietnamese pilot who conducted the bombing.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Does Islam say that it is important to forgive?

Forgiveness is not as deep in Islam.

Reading the Qu-ran, one senses a deep sense of loss, because love and compassion are not at Islam's core. Now I imagine Mindful will try to argue otherwise, but in reading the Qu-ran, one does not feel peace or love, but tension.

Forgiveness in Islam is very, very conditional. If one is not a disbeliever, if one hasn't caused other to disbelieve, and so on ....

It is no wonder Muslims have trouble forgiving as their religion doesn't seem to encourage it.

There is no real redemption or day of Atonement where one tries to reconcile with God. That is the emptiness I feel when studying Islam, no love.

Here is a discussion which makes it sound very ritualistic and unreasonable to expect forgiveness:

Allah (SWT),who named Himself Ar-Rahman (The Beneficent) and Ar-Rahim (The Merciful) is also Al-Ghafoor (The Forgiving). His Mercy overtakes His punishment and anger. He is more merciful to His creations than a mother can be to her infants. He created "man with weakness"; thus He knows and we should know that "to err is human," and "no one is perfect."

Iblis (Satan), the cursed one, out of envy to Adam, has promised to himself "to attack children of Adam on their way to their journey toward God, so that those who fall prey to his attack will also have the same fate as himself (I'll take you down with me!). So he says, "I'll attack men from the front, behind and sides." (7:17) This means he will disguise himself as our friend, as our opponent, and side distractions of the world. He will then make us do wrong by presenting evil as good (poison candy in a nice wrapper), making us angry, jealous, envious, just "follow-the-leader" type, and we wrong ourselves and fall prey to his temptation. Iblis and his followers have a feast of joy and laugh at man's foolishness, until the man realizes his mistakes, repents and asks for forgiveness and he is forgiven, and then Iblis cries again.

Giving up Hope of the Mercy of Allah is a crime in itself:

"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." (42:25)

In order for forgiveness to be accepted, these conditions should be met:

(1) The crime is committed out of ignorance, not with the intention that, "Let us go ahead and commit this crime as Allah is forgiving, so He will forgive us.";

(2) Quickly turn into shame and repentance after committing a crime out of ignorance;

(3) After asking for forgiveness, make a promise or pledge to "mend his ways", and to stick to his promise. Let us examine verses of Quran.

"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)

"Forgiveness is not for those who do ill until death faces one of them, who then says, 'Lo! I repent now, nor for those who die as disbelievers, for such we have prepared a painful doom.'" (4:18)

IS ANY CRIME OR TOO MANY CRIMES TOO BIG TO BE FORGIVEN?
Let us examine two Hadith.

1) Hadith Qudsi: Allah, the Almighty, has said:

O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

2) Prophet (SW) has said:

A certain person had committed 99 murders. He went to a scholar and asked, is there any chance of my being forgiven? The scholar said no, you have committed too many crimes. The man killed the scholar too, but his heart was restless, so he went to another scholar and asked the same question. He was told yes, but you must leave this town of bad people and go live in the next town in the company of good people.

So the man set out to the town he was told to go to. On the way he died. A man passing by saw two angels arguing over his dead body. The Angel from Hell said, 'His body belongs to me as he had not done any good in his life.' The Angel from Heaven said, 'His body belongs to me as he had repented and was set out to be with good people.' The man who was the passer-by said, 'Let us measure the distance of his body from the town he left and the town he was going to.'

This was done. He was found to be nearer to the town he was going to. In another version, the earth was ordered by Allah to shrink and make the distance smaller, so that he was admitted to Heaven.

How does Allah forgive us?

When we commit a sin, four witnesses are established against us.

a) The place we did the crime (i.e., scene of the murder).

"On that day, the earth will reveal all its secrets." (99:4)

b) The organ we used to commit the crime. "When their ears, their eyes, their skin will testify against them." (41:21)

"That day we seal up mouths, and hands speak out and feet bear witness to all that they did." (36:65)

c) The Angels who record the deeds (Kiraman Katebeen).

"The honored writers know what you do." (82:11)

d) "We record that which they send before them, and their footprints, and all things we have kept in a clear register." (36:12)

Now, with four such strong witnesses, how can we present ourselves to Allah? So He (the Al-Wakeel--the Defender), like a smart lawyer, removes all the witnesses against those whose repentance has been accepted, so that we present ourselves with a clean record. Case dissolved due to lack of witnesses. Hadith is like this. "When Allah accepts repentance and forgives His servant, then recording angels erase their records, organs lose their memories, and earth removes its stains of evidence so that when that person appears before Allah, there is no one to be a witness against him. Subhan Allah.

How to ask for forgiveness when Adam and Eve realized they had done wrong but did not know how to ask for forgiveness:

Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of forgiveness, and his Lord turned toward him, for He is Oft-Forgiving and Most Merciful. (2:37)

What were those words taught to Adam?

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged our souls and if you forgive us not, and bestow not upon us your mercy, we shall be losers. (7:23)

How did the Prophet Muhammad (AS) teach Aisha (RA) to ask for forgiveness in Ramadan?

O my Lord, forgive me, because you love to forgive, thus forgive me, O you Merciful!

Remember, asking for forgiveness is not just for our sins, but also for our needs as well.

And I have said! Seek forgiveness from your Lord. Lo! He is oft-forgiving (if you ask for forgiveness). He will give you plenty of rain, He will give you wealth and sons, and assign you Heaven and Rivers in the Heaven. (Surah Nuh:10-12)

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Does Islam say that it is important to forgive?

Yes ,extraordinary important and it urges us to achive the capability to overcome our internal desire to revenge ..thats why islam says that ,the challenge with the enemy inside is not slightly comparable with fighting the enemy outside ..

needs to confess, its quite difficult to be a ture muslim,but yet agian its worth what you obtain.

[MikeWaters]

Mindful, aren't there some escape clauses in the Koran. For example, if the person who offends you is a jew, you don't need to forgive.

My friend who is an Indian Muslim really HATES the mullahs in the middle east, from what I can tell. It's like how Mormons feel when they are compared to Warren Jeffs.

Unfortunately in the ME there are many millions of Warren Jeffs.

Unfortunately for Iran, their country may soon become a sea of glass.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Forgiveness is not as deep in Islam.

Reading the Qu-ran, one senses a deep sense of loss, because love and compassion are not at Islam's core. Now I imagine Mindful will try to argue otherwise, but in reading the Qu-ran, one does not feel peace or love, but tension.

Forgiveness in Islam is very, very conditional. If one is not a disbeliever, if one hasn't caused other to disbelieve, and so on ....

It is no wonder Muslims have trouble forgiving as their religion doesn't seem to encourage it.

There is no real redemption or day of Atonement where one tries to reconcile with God. That is the emptiness I feel when studying Islam, no love.

Here is a discussion which makes it sound very ritualistic and unreasonable to expect forgiveness:

well...reading Quran and embracing the true meaning are totally different storeis . but seeing your passion toward forgiveness and love ,arouses a question here " would you pardon Bin Ladan"? or better to say "are you allowed to pardon Bin Ladan?"

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

well...reading Quran and embracing the true meaning are totally different storeis . but seeing your passion toward forgiveness and love ,arouses a question here " would you pardon Bin Ladan"? or better to say "are you allowed to pardon Bin Ladan?"

It depends on the realm.

He would need to face legal justice, and that would not result in happiness for him. Compassion and charity do not mean a person who breaks a law, necessarily escapes the governmental punishment. But it is not my place to implement that punishment. That must be done either according to the rules of war or post-war regulations. Fortunately, I am not involved in that.

However, am I as a Christian allowed to harbor resentment toward him? No. Even he must be forgiven by a believer. Am I or other Christians perfect in achieving this? Not by a long shot. Of the people I harbor, improper resentments toward, he's not high on the list, though I do not think highly of his actions. I do not walk around hating him, as I have better things to do.

Again a model Christian will have already forgiven him in his heart. Judge good Mormons and Christians by this standard, not by the less the good example I may set.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Mindful, aren't there some escape clauses in the Koran. For example, if the person who offends you is a jew, you don't need to forgive.

My friend who is an Indian Muslim really HATES the mullahs in the middle east, from what I can tell. It's like how Mormons feel when they are compared to Warren Jeffs.

Unfortunately in the ME there are many millions of Warren Jeffs.

Unfortunately for Iran, their country may soon become a sea of glass.

Its quite a general question ..i have no idea what your friend is probably uspet of ..but from what i have been witnessed all my life ..we are always encouraged to treat others with respect and dignity .
since we believe any human being deserves to recieve that and it makes no difference if you are muslim , jew, christian or atheist ..etc. i have some jews friends ,and befor i hear from you , i had NO idea jews are famous for some sort of jokes.. you might not believe it ..but its truly ture.

forgiveness in is an inevitable part of practicing to be a muslim which indeed requires huge effort.