Nationwide CNN poll finds Obama handily won the debate

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Hahaha, you're on a roll Tex. Now Americans are lazy and passing the buck. The Obama campaign should make you the poster boy for being out of touch. Dam Americans for wanting to be rewarded for their hard work.

I don't consider gov't taking money from a productive group and giving it for free to an unproductive group "rewarding hard work." Where I come from, that's called welfare.

I am absolutely not opposed to people being rewarded for hard work. That's what is at the core of conservatism, a great American value, and the reason why hard-core leftists like Obama have historically had a difficult time winning the White House.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

I don't consider gov't taking money from a productive group and giving it for free to an unproductive group "rewarding hard work." Where I come from, that's called welfare.

I am absolutely not opposed to people being rewarded for hard work. That's what is at the core of conservatism, a great American value, and the reason why hard-core leftists like Obama have historically had a difficult time winning the White House.

what "unproductive group" are you talking about? I suggest you check the BEA's productivity numbers before you point fingers.

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

The Fox poll, like any internet poll, is completely worthless. If McCain had come out on stage, curled up in a fetal position, and sucked his thumb for the entire debate, he probably would have still received over 50% of the votes.

Having said that, the CNN poll, even though the methodology is obviously better, doesn't really say that Obama won in any meaningful way. The poll was only of people who watched the debates, not likely voters or anything like that. Of the poll's participants, 13% more were Democrats than Republicans. In the final result, 13% more people said Obama won than McCain. I couldn't find a breakdown, but it appears that, shockingly, Democrats thought Obama won, Republicans thought McCain won, and independents split pretty evenly. Pretty much exactly what we see here on CG. To me, that seems like it was basically a tie.

LOL, the CNN poll is clearly the better poll?

Hmm....... Maybe that is because more democrats get their news from the clinton news network.

[Clark Addison]

Originally Posted by T Blue

LOL, the CNN poll is clearly the better poll?

Hmm....... Maybe that is because more democrats get their news from the clinton news network.

Are you saying that a poll with a randomized sampling strategy is not inherently better than an internet poll where whoever visits the site votes? Do you know anything about polling?

I acknowledged that, from what we can see, the CNN poll has issues, and that it does NOT indicate that Obama won. Do you have anything more insightful to add than an LOL?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

what "unproductive group" are you talking about? I suggest you check the BEA's productivity numbers before you point fingers.

What I am trying to say is, under a capitalist system, gov't handouts are not how people are rewarded for their hard work. It's not the govt's job to make up for inequities in a market economy.

I'm not opposed, of course, to some measure of help as a temporary stopgap to those who are struggling. But Obama is proposing a welfare state, the heart and soul of liberalism. It's stunningly anti-capitalist and anti-traditional America.

[Ma'ake]

Originally Posted by Tex

What I am trying to say is, under a capitalist system, gov't handouts are not how people are rewarded for their hard work. It's not the govt's job to make up for inequities in a market economy.

I'm not opposed, of course, to some measure of help as a temporary stopgap to those who are struggling. But Obama is proposing a welfare state, the heart and soul of liberalism. It's stunningly anti-capitalist and anti-traditional America.

I can't think of a worse dis-incentive & demoralizer than layoffs & serious stuggles for those who work hard (but are of limited capacity to become well off), an inevitable byproduct of the unfettered free market. To the extent social program buffer good people from regular & inevitable economic turbulence (and remember, these are folks who typically are unable to "ride it out"), I believe these programs facilitate a healthier economic life for most, leading directly to the greater good.

I took advantage of social programs going to college. After having multiple low-end jobs, the investment the public made in me has resulted in far greater revenue back to the public. I don't see this as some kind of moral hazard, destabilizing the work ethic that underpins our society & culture. In fact, I wholly support similar investments in the generation coming up. Like societal investment in education, it pays off, over all.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I can't think of a worse dis-incentive & demoralizer than layoffs & serious stuggles for those who work hard (but are of limited capacity to become well off), an inevitable byproduct of the unfettered free market. To the extent social program buffer good people from regular & inevitable economic turbulence (and remember, these are folks who typically are unable to "ride it out"), I believe these programs facilitate a healthier economic life for most, leading directly to the greater good.

I support limited and temporary help under certain circumstances.

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I took advantage of social programs going to college. After having multiple low-end jobs, the investment the public made in me has resulted in far greater revenue back to the public. I don't see this as some kind of moral hazard, destabilizing the work ethic that underpins our society & culture. In fact, I wholly support similar investments in the generation coming up. Like societal investment in education, it pays off, over all.

If by "societal investment" you mean the feds confiscating money and redistributing wealth, then we part ways at that definition. Other than that, I agree with you.

---

As an aside, the problem with liberals is they think they own compassion. If I oppose a program that inefficiently and unfairly redistributes money to the poor, I'm a heartless SOB who enjoys seeing people suffer. If I don't want my income, which I "worked hard" for, taken forcibly from me and used to subsidize a loan to someone completely unable to repay, I'm a greedy, selfish jerk.

If that makes them sleep better, by all means. It's a tin-foil hat reality.

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by Clark Addison

Are you saying that a poll with a randomized sampling strategy is not inherently better than an internet poll where whoever visits the site votes? Do you know anything about polling?

I acknowledged that, from what we can see, the CNN poll has issues, and that it does NOT indicate that Obama won. Do you have anything more insightful to add than an LOL?

Actually I am saying that CNN is a f'ing joke!!!

I can take a poll and make the numbers say anything I want them to say, and if I am as slanted as CNN in making their GOD Obama become the winner in the poll, well...... Just saying........

As for your dig at me for your superior knowledge in polling, easy there fella, I am just calling them as I see them, Clinton News Network is a f'ing joke!!!

Just the same as Faux is a f'ing joke, same story different spin, there are you happy now, I hate both equally, no prejudice.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by T Blue

Actually I am saying that CNN is a f'ing joke!!!

I can take a poll and make the numbers say anything I want them to say, and if I am as slanted as CNN in making their GOD Obama become the winner in the poll, well...... Just saying........

As for your dig at me for your superior knowledge in polling, easy there fella, I am just calling them as I see them, Clinton News Network is a f'ing joke!!!

Just the same as Faux is a f'ing joke, same story different spin, there are you happy now, I hate both equally, no prejudice.

I won't be happy until you weigh in on MSNBC and the Huffington Post.

[Ma'ake]

Originally Posted by Tex

IIf by "societal investment" you mean the feds confiscating money and redistributing wealth, then we part ways at that definition.

Does this include all the pork barrel with defense contracting?