My unresolved issues concerning the church

[realtall]

Several things about the church & its history have been bugging me over the last several months.

Here they are:


Joseph Smith and his 33 wives

I am less concerned with the fact that Joseph Smith had 33 wives and more concerned with the (apparent)fact that he married a fair portion of them while they were still married to someone else. Does this seem grossly out of line to anyone but me? Did the Lord tell him to do this? This seems wildly inconsistant with any definition of marriage that I've ever heard of be it the Old Testament, BoM, or the D&C. And yes, I'm still a little upset that the church is still using the, "Shhhh...it's a secret" method on the whole thing(including the fact that he even had more than one wife).


The Salamander Letter

The common reasoning for this one is, 'Well, church leaders make mistakes, too.' This seems like an important thing to make mistakes on. Isn't the prophet entitled to revelation for the whole church? Didn't he go home and pray about the authenticity? And he still made a mistake? There is something about this that I am just not getting.

Mountain Meadows Massacre

I guess that this one is not that big of a deal to me. From what little reading I have done on the subject, there has never been reliable information that Brigham actually ordered the murder of those poor people. Some local nutjobs, I guess.

Polygamy

Begun by Joseph Smith(shhhh...its a secret) this practice flourished for a while in the west. Brigham(not sure if I have this right) received a revelation that polygamy was never to leave the earth. In 1890 the church disavowed it due to intense pressure from the US government(or so it appears). Even so, there are reports of polygamous relationships still being sealed in the temples(though I'm uncertain as to their reliability).


The church's 'white shirt' policy for priesthood holders

Ok, I'm just kidding about this one.



I realize that I may be all wet on some of my facts. If so, please correct me.

[All-American]

No point in arguing about the specifics, for the most part. We could bicker about them ad nauseum, but you have the generics dead on.

The one point I will bicker about, though, is polyandry. It is true that Joseph was sealed to women who were then married to other men. With only one very disputed exception, however, he had sex with none of them. What was his motive, then, if it was not sexual relations? Certainly not prestige, if he kept it a secret. With no apparent benefits to the marriages in THIS life, he clearly had the next life in mind.

I don't mean to sweep any of these issues under the rug. As a matter of fact, I wish they were more fully studied, as they give great insight into the identities of the first generation of the restored church. Every one of these issues, however, is ultimately subordinate to the simple Joseph Smith/Book of Mormon litmus test.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That's a pretty good list, but the one that bothers me the least is the Salamander Letter. Yes, the prophet is certainly in a position where the Lord could have allowed him to discern the authenticity of the letter, but who are we to insist that the Lord is required to provide that inspiration in this case? Is God required to provide a revelation each and every we deem it would appropriate? Furthermore, is it necessary to have an absolutist viewpoint regarding the prophet?

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by All-American

The one point I will bicker about, though, is polyandry. It is true that Joseph was sealed to women who were then married to other men. With only one very disputed exception, however, he had sex with none of them. What was his motive, then, if it was not sexual relations? Certainly not prestige, if he kept it a secret. With no apparent benefits to the marriages in THIS life, he clearly had the next life in mind.

The exception to which you refer in not that disputed. This is from a FARMS review of the Todd Compton book:

However, polyandry applies to Joseph Smith in a more limited sense, for with one exception, there is no reliable information on sexual relations after his being sealed to a married woman. In these cases, we simply know that an eternal marriage to Joseph was performed with the continuation of the temporal marriage to an existing husband.

That tells me that there IS reliable information that JS had relations with at least one of the married woman. You state that JS did not have relations with any of the other woman. The fact that evidence does not exist for sexual relations does not necessarily mean that relations did not exist. If he had sex in at least one of his polyandrous relations, then it makes sense that he probably had sex with the others. I'm not sure why one would assume otherwise.

[Alkili]

I have never really had a problem with polygamy, but when I heard about the already married women, It kind of threw me though a loop. I started looking into it to learn more about the subject and found a site called wives of joseph smith.

I started reading the little bio's of each wife until I read about Fanny Young. I don't know why but reading about her alleviated all of the worry or stress or what ever you would call it, about him. This quote from her made me feel like he really cared about her, more then just any type of need for sexual gradification or something like that.

“Now, don’t talk to me; when I get into the celestial kingdom, if I ever get there, I shall request the privilege of being a ministering angel; that is the labor I wish to perform. I don’t want any companion in that world; and if the Lord will make me a ministering angel, it is all I want.” Joseph replied, “Sister, you talk very foolishly, you do not know what you will want.” and then turned to Brigham, “Here, Brother Brigham, you seal this lady to me.”

I don't know if it will mean anything to you, but it really helped me understand the Prophet better.

[realtall]

Originally Posted by Alkili

“Now, don’t talk to me; when I get into the celestial kingdom, if I ever get there, I shall request the privilege of being a ministering angel; that is the labor I wish to perform. I don’t want any companion in that world; and if the Lord will make me a ministering angel, it is all I want.” Joseph replied, “Sister, you talk very foolishly, you do not know what you will want.” and then turned to Brigham, “Here, Brother Brigham, you seal this lady to me.”

I don't know if it will mean anything to you, but it really helped me understand the Prophet better.

I am not even sure where to start on that one.

Joseph didn't want a companion in the next world? Doesn't this fly in the face of everything that we know about eternal marriage?

Joseph wanted to be a ministering angel? Isn't that a couple of rungs lower that celestial glory?


That whole exchange sounds very odd to me.

[il Padrino Ute]

I read it as the woman wanted to be a minsitering angel. Did I read it wrong?

[realtall]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I read it as the woman wanted to be a minsitering angel. Did I read it wrong?

Oh brother. You are exactly right. I misread the punctuation. Sometimes I think that my reading comprehension could use some work. ops:

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by realtall

Oh brother. You are exactly right. I misread the punctuation. Sometimes I think that my reading comprehension could use some work. ops:

No problem, lol. I've spent plenty of time repeating reading comprehension. It's pretty much the story of my life.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by All-American

It is true that Joseph was sealed to women who were then married to other men. With only one very disputed exception, however, he had sex with none of them.

A more accurate statement would be that there is no concrete evidence that he had sex with any of the women who were already married. This does not mean that he didn't. It only means that if he did, we have no proof.

It is easier to accept polyandry when we assume that he did not have sexual relations with women who were already married. However, if you take a look at what happened after Joseph died I think there may be some clues about the doctrine. You seem to really know your history, so perhaps you are already aware of the case of Zina D. Huntington. She married Henry Jacobs and later became one of Josephs wives. This was with Henry's knowledge and consent. After Joseph died, she was married to Brigham Young for time. Mr. Henry Jacobs stood as a witness to that marriage. Brigham allowed Henry to stay with Zina until the saints reached Iowa. He then told him that he was "walking in another mans shoes" and that Zina was now his (Brigham's). Brigham then took Zina and the children born to Henry and no divorce was necessary. She later bore children to Brigham.

Bottom line? It appears that one with a higher priesthood could "take" (with her consent) a married woman who was supposed to be his and no divorce was necessary. When exactly sexual relations began is not clear. They just didn't talk about that stuff much. But it seems to me that a sexual relationship would be consistent with the "higher" marriage. The part I don't understand is why some were allowed to stay with the original husband. It's all very confusing. But I think I've made my opinion on the matter clear in previous threads.