National Health Care

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by hyrum

I can point you to places where you can read about people waiting in pain for a joint replacement because its considered "elective" surgery. Also there are new techniques and materials but they only pay for "your grandfather's" joint replacement, not the new materials (e.g. metal or ceramic vs plastic). Some of them have been going to India for it. This is not to say there aren't similar problems in America with insurance coverage issues of the same nature.

Living in Canada I'd like to read all about the system I currently live with. I bet the story(s) isn't as straight forward as your post suggests

The reality is the Canadian system is not great, not bad, but pretty good. There are problems such as an acute lack of access to family doctors. There simply aren't enough of them and the one's practicing are overworked and a little underpaid (IMO).

The entire system is predicated upon referrals starting with the family doctor. Once the referral is made you get absolute access to the service, despite a potentially long wait (several weeks or a couple of months) for an elective procedure. If a condition is potentially life threatening etc. a patient is moved to the front of the line and the care is immediate … and yes, it is the SAME level of care available in the states.

In many regards the system is slow to adopt new procedures, techniques and materials –but ultimately they ARE adopted and in fact many MORE procedures are available to EVERYONE and not merely those with insurance! It is regularly argued in parliament that there should be some privatization of some elective services to permit those who can afford to accelerate the process to do so instead of going south or elsewhere. I might ad that an equal number of Americans are going to Malaysia and India for such services because it is more immediate and or cheaper

Our current conservative government might very well pass legislation that privatizes some services. I also think a nominal fee should be charged for each visit to a clinic. People who need to take an aspirin and get a good nights sleep overrun the clinics and place incredible stress on the aforementioned overworked family doctors.

The bottom line is I have lived in Canada for 14 years. I have NEVER come across a single person who has been denied the best care available in modern health sciences, myself included. Furthermore I am not a fan of MM and consider his work fiction … his fiction is as dangerous as the fiction one often hears about the Canadian health system by Americans who ignorantly fear national health care.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Translation:

Their anecdotal evidence blows, but mine is rock solid.

So if I live in Canada and deal with the Canadian Health system on a daily basis my experience and knowledge is anectdotal -check-

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I am a strong believer in public education, as are a majority of Americans. Admittedly, public education is basically "socialized education". The question is, why not health care?

People often try to make this analogy, but I find it a poor one.

Society made the determination that an educated workforce was more productive and better for the economy. If we promoted wellness, by virture of good health habits, that is something society should promote and look to subsidize. But we cannot afford unlimited health care consumption which public funded health care would become.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Living in Canada I'd like to read all about the system I currently live with. I bet the story(s) isn't as straight forward as your post suggests

The reality is the Canadian system is not great, not bad, but pretty good. There are problems such as an acute lack of access to family doctors. There simply aren't enough of them and the one's practicing are overworked and a little underpaid (IMO).

The entire system is predicated upon referrals starting with the family doctor. Once the referral is made you get absolute access to the service, despite a potentially long wait (several weeks or a couple of months) for an elective procedure. If a condition is potentially life threatening etc. a patient is moved to the front of the line and the care is immediate … and yes, it is the SAME level of care available in the states.

In many regards the system is slow to adopt new procedures, techniques and materials –but ultimately they ARE adopted and in fact many MORE procedures are available to EVERYONE and not merely those with insurance! It is regularly argued in parliament that there should be some privatization of some elective services to permit those who can afford to accelerate the process to do so instead of going south or elsewhere. I might ad that an equal number of Americans are going to Malaysia and India for such services because it is more immediate and or cheaper

Our current conservative government might very well pass legislation that privatizes some services. I also think a nominal fee should be charged for each visit to a clinic. People who need to take an aspirin and get a good nights sleep overrun the clinics and place incredible stress on the aforementioned overworked family doctors.

The bottom line is I have lived in Canada for 14 years. I have NEVER come across a single person who has been denied the best care available in modern health sciences, myself included. Furthermore I am not a fan of MM and consider his work fiction … his fiction is as dangerous as the fiction one often hears about the Canadian health system by Americans who ignorantly fear national health care.

I have not met the mythical American denied care for lack of ability to pay, either. Now, are there some who can't afford million dollar experimental miracle cures? I bet there are. But the denial of care is a socialist fantasy used to promote the socialization of our health care system.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I have not met the mythical American denied care for lack of ability to pay, either. Now, are there some who can't afford million dollar experimental miracle cures? I bet there are. But the denial of care is a socialist fantasy used to promote the socialization of our health care system.

A not so uncommon sight in downtown LA/Skid Row: a homeless person in a hospital gown lying on the curb because they hospital dumped them at the Night Mission after a day or so of uninsured convalescence. I drive through Skid Row almost every day when I work in the LA office because it is a nice short cut to the freeway.

I agree that we dont turn people away....but in big cities, we kick them out quickly, for sure.

That being said, I have no practical solutions, either.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I have not met the mythical American denied care for lack of ability to pay, either. Now, are there some who can't afford million dollar experimental miracle cures? I bet there are. But the denial of care is a socialist fantasy used to promote the socialization of our health care system.

You are wrong. There are people dying because they can't afford $100K for chemotherapy. It happens all the time.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Living in Canada I'd like to read all about the system I currently live with. I bet the story(s) isn't as straight forward as your post suggests

The reality is the Canadian system is not great, not bad, but pretty good....

....

The bottom line is I have lived in Canada for 14 years. I have NEVER come across a single person who has been denied the best care available in modern health sciences, myself included. Furthermore I am not a fan of MM and consider his work fiction … his fiction is as dangerous as the fiction one often hears about the Canadian health system by Americans who ignorantly fear national health care.

I have boatloads of family living in Canada (in fact, I was born in Canada myself, but my family moved to the states when I was a baby). I've discussed their health system with quite a few of them, and they are generally quite positive in their assessment of their system. And for the most part, they are pretty conservative-minded individuals.

I'm no proponent of socialized medicine, but too many conservatives have their heads in the sand about health care problems in our society. I believe these people are simply hastening the day when we have socialized medicine in the US. The day will come when the solutions are proposed around the table, and if most of the conservatives have stayed their current course, the proposals will, for the most part, be socialized medicine and "Don't do anything". And in that case, socialized medicine will win, because the problems are real.

One thing I liked about Romney was his willingness to try a more conservative approach to these problems in MA. Whether or not I liked his solution, I admire his willingness to look for a creative solution based on more conservative principles.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

While I know a few Canadians, I've never discussed health care with them.

Maybe I should.

Discuss it with Tooblue and you can see how big of a commie he is

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I watched Sicko last night. Mike mentioned that it was worth a watch, so I checked it out. Although some parts were over the top (loving adoration for all parts of the french social system for example), it certainly makes one think about health care. I recommend it.

I particularly was interested in the segments on the Canadian and British national health care systems. When asked about compensation, a British doctor explained that a large component of their compensation is based on outcomes. I.e., if they can get patients to quit smoking or reduce blood pressure, they get paid more. I think that makes great sense.

As for the Canadian system, for as long as I can remember I have heard Americans say "Socialized medicine is awful in Canada - people die waiting for operations due to equipment and doctor shortages." However, I have known lots of Canadians and I have yet to meet a single one that had anything bad to say about the health care system. Without exception, they have all been passionate advocates. Maybe I just haven't met the right people. Furthermore, it seems that there are far more Americans dying off due to lack of access to health care. Thousands of poor and uninsured die each year in the US due to the prohibitive cost of cancer treatments, heart surgery, etc. And Canadians and Brits are far healthier than we are in the US, on average. That could have multiple explanations, but it makes one think.

The one thing that universal health care proponents don't take into effect is the size of the USA WE have 350 million people here. Giving them all insurance will take a lot of money

England has 50 million people
Canada has 26 million people
France has 60 million people

Its a lot harder to give good healthcare with so many people. Look at brazil they are have half as many people as the US and their systems suck. Look at India and China. Conversely sweden has fantastic healthcare. The US is doing pretty good if you take its size into consideration

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

The one thing that universal health care proponents don't take into effect is the size of the USA WE have 350 million people here. Giving them all insurance will take a lot of money

England has 50 million people
Canada has 26 million people
France has 60 million people

Its a lot harder to give good healthcare with so many people. Look at brazil they are have half as many people as the US and their systems suck. Look at India and China. Conversely sweden has fantastic healthcare. The US is doing pretty good if you take its size into consideration

I have never liked the idea of socialized medicine, but had not even taken into consideration the population of the US and how much more it would cost than in other countries.

I didn't think it was possible, but I am even more against it now.