Hillary for President

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

I'll let someone else tackle the civil rights issue, but it boggles my mind that after living in France you would ever call any Democrat a socialist. Hillary ain't even close to a socialist. In fact, the Democratic and Republican party are considered to be the same type of party by political scientists, both liberal (in the European sense). The only differences between the parties are the types and intensity of the policies of the parties.

I agree with you. I was just commenting on BlueHair, a self-professed libertarian, looking to a "socialist" (his word, not mine) to make things right in America. The idea is interesting.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

I don't think he's suddenly turned us into a police state, it's taken six years. I also don't think that my day to day life has changed that much. I doubt that most non-Jewish German's lives would have changed much in the early Hitler years either. My biggest complaints are: The centralized police force he created (the Germans called it the Gestapo, we call it Homeland Security), his belief in torture, invading the wrong country, the Patriot Act, domestic spying, habeas corpus issues, declaring an open ended war on a non-specific enemy (the war on terror is too broad), and cronyism. I'm sure I forgot a few.

Comparing Bush to Hitler and Homeland Security to the Gestapo, while it might feel good, is beyond the pale. So far, in fact, it weakens credibility. While you've provided some general complaints about Bush, I'm still seeking examples of how Americans are losing their civil rights.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Comparing Bush to Hitler and Homeland Security to the Gestapo, while it might feel good, is beyond the pale. So far, in fact, it weakens credibility. While you've provided some general complaints about Bush, I'm still seeking examples of how Americans are losing their civil rights.

True. Bush is no Hitler. Maybe a mini-Hitler, but certainly no Hitler. I stand by the Gestapo comment. A centralized police force is a very bad thing.

The civil rights I am talking about are mostly privacy issues. Please don't tell me you are one of those "If you're not doing anything wrong, what does it matter?" people. One example is the Patriot Act. The government can look at your library records, internet searches, banking records, travel, credit card transactions. If they "think" you are a terrorist, they may be able to listen in on your conversations with your lawyer. They can also hold you without charging you or letting you speak to a lawyer. Protesting rights have also been reduced. Domestic wiretapping is another issue that causes me great concern.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

They can also hold you without charging you or letting you speak to a lawyer. Protesting rights have also been reduced. Domestic wiretapping is another issue that causes me great concern.

1. Why do you think you can be held without access to a lawyer?

2. What protesting rights have been reduced?

3. When you say domestic wire tapping, are you talking about the tapping of calls where one of the parties to the call is a known terrorist or something else?

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

I agree with you. I was just commenting on BlueHair, a self-professed libertarian, looking to a "socialist" (his word, not mine) to make things right in America. The idea is interesting.

I don't think she would "save" us. She may slow or stop the bleeding on the Bush and Republican Congress abuses. If I have to give more of my hard earned dollars to their bleeding heart social policies, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I don't like it, but I'd rather be free and poor.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

1. Why do you think you can be held without access to a lawyer?

2. What protesting rights have been reduced?

3. When you say domestic wire tapping, are you talking about the tapping of calls where one of the parties to the call is a known terrorist or something else?

They held Jose Padilla without a lawyer (the length of time is disputed), calling him an enemy combatant. He was held for three years without charges. Here is a link: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/22/pa...ase/index.html

The protesting rights- I'm most concerned about being told when and where we can protest. Also, permits are required in some areas.

The wiretapping I am talking about is where one of the parties in not a known terrorist. The ones done without a judge's order. I don't think you can trust government agencies and law enforcement to decide when a wire tap is necessary.

I think the government needs to be on an extremely short leash on all privacy issues. In my opinion, the government rarely works in our best interest. It's sole purpose seems to be to grab more power and control.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

I don't think she would "save" us. She may slow or stop the bleeding on the Bush and Republican Congress abuses. If I have to give more of my hard earned dollars to their bleeding heart social policies, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I don't like it, but I'd rather be free and poor.

Move to Cuba.

I'd rather be free and rich, with no need to pay attention to politics.

[BlueHair]

How many of these apply to our current government?

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I'd rather be free and rich, with no need to pay attention to politics.

Me too. That doesn't appear to be an option though. Although I think the part about not paying attention to politics sounds good. We're too far down the road to do anything about it anyway.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

A libertarian looking to socialists for salvation. Interesting.

From time to time I hear about Bush's assault on civil rights, so I'm curious about the details of how that is affecting the day to day lives of Americans.

Mr. Noah,

I don't know that most Americans are affected directly by the PATRIOT act. I don't think we're all being wiretapped or monitored by satellite surveillance. (Of course we wouldn't know if we were.)

But the PATRIOT act has made enormous work for libraries. One of the provisions is that library records can be seized at any time, and librarians are not allowed to disclose whether the feds have or have not seized records. Librarians tend to zealously guard the privacy of their users, so the result has been an industry-wide effort to change policy and procedure to protect the user. This has meant an increase in work and expense.

It's hard to explain this in such a way that any normal person would care, but the point is that yes, for some Americans day-to-day life has changed.

(end rant.)

Next topic:

Most Americans are probably not affected much, but I've had coworkers (American citizens) whose lives have become made more difficult due to the fact that they have Muslim names, and the PATRIOT act allows for profiling.