One of my pet peeves - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 02-21-2013, 05:16 PM

is when someone says, "Based on all the evidence and thinking about all the factors we decided that we would choose option 1. But then we fasted and prayed and decided that God wanted us to choose option 2. We don't' know why, we just know it's God's will. Yes, this screws you, but it's what God wanted. It's not what we wanted."

Got news for you. God doesn't care enough about your dumb little choices to actually have an opinion. He gave you a brain and a heart to make your own decisions.

Good luck being a "god" yourself when you can't make your own decisions for yourself.

ute4ever · 02-21-2013, 06:24 PM

Aren't we commanded to study it out in our minds first, but then before acting upon it, to ask God if it is right? The wisdom and precepts of man alone have often led many into error.

MikeWaters · 02-21-2013, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Aren't we commanded to study it out in our minds first, but then before acting upon it, to ask God if it is right? The wisdom and precepts of man alone have often led many into error.

nope. one of the modern day fallacies. that verse was about translation. not a primer on how to live one's life.

ute4ever · 02-21-2013, 08:01 PM

One of the most frequent commandments given by God is to pray. He told Adam to do "all that thou doest in the name of the son, call upon God in the name of the son forevermore" (Moses 5).

The Lord "chastened" the brother of Jared because he "remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord, and [he] repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord" (Ether 2).

Amulek: humble yourselves and continue in prayer unto him...pour out your souls. (Alma 34)

Marion G. Romney: "the purpose of prayer is not to appease a vindictive Diety or court favors from an indulgent Father. It is to attune oneself with the spirit or light which proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space (D&C 88:12). In that light is to be found sure answers to all our needs." -April 1978 GC

MikeWaters · 02-21-2013, 08:45 PM

Self-justification through prayer. It's not becoming. It's not scriptural. It's not right.

This idea that we should seek revelation through the same process that God instructed Oliver Cowdery to translate the Book of Mormon has led to great harm. There are many ways to seek revelation and understand the will of the cosmos. Terryl Givens said so. So it must be true.

ute4ever · 02-21-2013, 11:18 PM

Gordon B. Hinckley:

Quote:

I am convinced that if we are to continue to have the freedoms which came of the inspiration of the Almighty to our Founding Fathers, we must return to the God who is their true author. We need to worship him in spirit and in truth. We need to acknowledge his all powerful hand. We need to humble ourselves before him and seek his guidance in all that concerns matters of state. Do we believe in the separation of church and state? Of course we do, but that belief does not preclude a petition to the Almighty for wisdom and guidance as we walk through these perilous times.

-BYU Devotional, 1997.

Here he demonstrates that even state leaders should seek God's guidance, rather than rely on their own wisdom. These are people who generally hold degrees in government, political science, and/or law, followed by decades of experience, yet the prophet recommends they prayerfully seek God's advice in all matters of state.

When Nephi and his brothers discussed ideas regarding obtaining the brass plates, they didn't pray for guidance; their collective wisdom was to send Laman in alone to ask for them. When that failed, their second plan was to buy the plates, and again they proceeded without seeking the Lord. (1 Ne 3). Note that on the third and successful attempt, Nephi went alone, and "was led by the spirit" (1 Ne 4:6).

MikeWaters · 02-22-2013, 12:18 AM

during which he committed murder.

ute4ever · 02-22-2013, 12:56 AM

Despite all of the wickedness that transpired in Sodom and Gomorrah, the prophet Abraham plead with the Lord again and again not to destroy the city. The Lord-- possibly to honor his chosen prophet, and possibly to better drive the point home-- kept agreeing to easier and easier prerequisites, but ultimately Abraham's hope and wishes proved futile, and the Lord's wisdom prevailed.

The point is, Abraham was filled with love and compassion for all of his brethren, despite their worldly choices, and probably hoped for more time to preach repentance unto them, but the Lord's will was to go a different course. Had Abraham relied upon his own wisdom, he wouldn't have been in tune with the Lord's plan.

Also, when Lehi's company reached the great waters, option 1 was probably to build a civilization, not a boat. But they consulted with the Lord.

MikeWaters · 02-22-2013, 01:32 AM

on phone, will reply later.

MikeWaters · 02-22-2013, 02:54 AM

Let's use a marriage scenario.

In this scenario a man is trying to decide whether to marry his girlfriend. They've been dating seriously for over a year. Based on a multitude of factors he thinks it's a good match. They grow closer. There's a mutual bond. They have compatible values.

So the man decides yes, this is the woman he wants to marry. But he decides he must pray first. So he fasts and prays that Sunday, and decides to his "chagrin" that God does not want them to get married. He breaks up with her.

....

The problem I have with this is why revelation was expected only at the end, as a kind of capstone. Why wasn't revelation ongoing and part of the process the whole way through. Why is this man sitting there on a Sunday evening trying to decipher the answer to a prayer? Why isn't his entire life a kind of prayer? In which case there would not be the particular need to pray in that one instance to make that decision.

What a weird thing it is to constantly have to be upturned by sudden whims of God, that go against all our values.

Like for example murder.

A person close to me who has become devout LDS, whereas before was not so devout. He tells me that he isn't sure it's God's will for him to be married.

Preposterous BS in his case. He ignores all the entreaties that he has heard about marriage being what is God's will for essentially everyone. He ignores his own desire and hope to be married. And is trying to divine some kind of cosmic will that goes against this.

Freaking A, make your down decision about your own life and get married if that's what you want to do. Do not sit on a Sunday evening and pray whether you are supposed to be married or not. THE ANSWER FOR YOU IS YES!!!

.....

I will grant there are some exceptions. My philosophy is not hard and fast. But let's no pretend that some people are citing God's will when in fact what they are really putting forward are their subconscious (or conscious) desires/fears.

Do not be commanded in all things. I don't want to be doing everything for my kids when they are adults. I want them to be responsible and independent. Why doesn't God want the same for us? Learn the correct principles and apply them.

02-21-2013, 05:16 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	One of my pet peeves is when someone says, "Based on all the evidence and thinking about all the factors we decided that we would choose option 1. But then we fasted and prayed and decided that God wanted us to choose option 2. We don't' know why, we just know it's God's will. Yes, this screws you, but it's what God wanted. It's not what we wanted." Got news for you. God doesn't care enough about your dumb little choices to actually have an opinion. He gave you a brain and a heart to make your own decisions. Good luck being a "god" yourself when you can't make your own decisions for yourself.

02-21-2013, 06:24 PM	#2
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Aren't we commanded to study it out in our minds first, but then before acting upon it, to ask God if it is right? The wisdom and precepts of man alone have often led many into error.

02-21-2013, 08:01 PM	#4
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	One of the most frequent commandments given by God is to pray. He told Adam to do "all that thou doest in the name of the son, call upon God in the name of the son forevermore" (Moses 5). The Lord "chastened" the brother of Jared because he "remembered not to call upon the name of the Lord, and [he] repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord" (Ether 2). Amulek: humble yourselves and continue in prayer unto him...pour out your souls. (Alma 34) Marion G. Romney: "the purpose of prayer is not to appease a vindictive Diety or court favors from an indulgent Father. It is to attune oneself with the spirit or light which proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space (D&C 88:12). In that light is to be found sure answers to all our needs." -April 1978 GC

02-21-2013, 08:45 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Self-justification through prayer. It's not becoming. It's not scriptural. It's not right. This idea that we should seek revelation through the same process that God instructed Oliver Cowdery to translate the Book of Mormon has led to great harm. There are many ways to seek revelation and understand the will of the cosmos. Terryl Givens said so. So it must be true.

02-22-2013, 12:18 AM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	during which he committed murder.

02-22-2013, 12:56 AM	#8
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Despite all of the wickedness that transpired in Sodom and Gomorrah, the prophet Abraham plead with the Lord again and again not to destroy the city. The Lord-- possibly to honor his chosen prophet, and possibly to better drive the point home-- kept agreeing to easier and easier prerequisites, but ultimately Abraham's hope and wishes proved futile, and the Lord's wisdom prevailed. The point is, Abraham was filled with love and compassion for all of his brethren, despite their worldly choices, and probably hoped for more time to preach repentance unto them, but the Lord's will was to go a different course. Had Abraham relied upon his own wisdom, he wouldn't have been in tune with the Lord's plan. Also, when Lehi's company reached the great waters, option 1 was probably to build a civilization, not a boat. But they consulted with the Lord.

02-22-2013, 01:32 AM	#9
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	on phone, will reply later.

02-22-2013, 02:54 AM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Let's use a marriage scenario. In this scenario a man is trying to decide whether to marry his girlfriend. They've been dating seriously for over a year. Based on a multitude of factors he thinks it's a good match. They grow closer. There's a mutual bond. They have compatible values. So the man decides yes, this is the woman he wants to marry. But he decides he must pray first. So he fasts and prays that Sunday, and decides to his "chagrin" that God does not want them to get married. He breaks up with her. .... The problem I have with this is why revelation was expected only at the end, as a kind of capstone. Why wasn't revelation ongoing and part of the process the whole way through. Why is this man sitting there on a Sunday evening trying to decipher the answer to a prayer? Why isn't his entire life a kind of prayer? In which case there would not be the particular need to pray in that one instance to make that decision. What a weird thing it is to constantly have to be upturned by sudden whims of God, that go against all our values. Like for example murder. A person close to me who has become devout LDS, whereas before was not so devout. He tells me that he isn't sure it's God's will for him to be married. Preposterous BS in his case. He ignores all the entreaties that he has heard about marriage being what is God's will for essentially everyone. He ignores his own desire and hope to be married. And is trying to divine some kind of cosmic will that goes against this. Freaking A, make your down decision about your own life and get married if that's what you want to do. Do not sit on a Sunday evening and pray whether you are supposed to be married or not. THE ANSWER FOR YOU IS YES!!! ..... I will grant there are some exceptions. My philosophy is not hard and fast. But let's no pretend that some people are citing God's will when in fact what they are really putting forward are their subconscious (or conscious) desires/fears. Do not be commanded in all things. I don't want to be doing everything for my kids when they are adults. I want them to be responsible and independent. Why doesn't God want the same for us? Learn the correct principles and apply them.