The Church's financial situation

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Adam

I might be wrong, but wouldn't it be wonderful to have the data and have the conversation? To know that $X billion dollars was being added to the $YYY billion endowment and hear them explain how it was God's will to do that instead of fund the homeless shelter? It really might be God's will--I'm open to the possibility. I would like to believe these decisions were being made with God's will in mind.

Of course the conversation would be absurd and they would look ridiculous trying to justify it--so they are willing to pay $3 million to settle a dubious suit in Oregon rather then release their financial records.

I have always found it hard to understand the argument that you shouldn't keep one person warm because it might attract another who needed to be kept warm. You are right, we might end up keeping a lot of people warm. I don't see how this is a bad thing. It wouldn't be so terrible if Utah came known as a place where homeless people could go to keep warm--that those Mormons would feed and warm anyone. I can think of worse things to be known for.

Your NIMBY-extended argument is sad to hear. Because you don't want one in your backyard, you won't support building one anywhere.

I'm sorry, I don't recall making any such arguement. I believe the point I am making is that homeless people are more often than not CRIMINALS. Maybe you should live on a street where the homeless people chase innocent passerbys screaming obscenities at them, or getting drunk/high and stripping off all their clothes and parading around nude on your street. I personally do think it would be a shame if Utah County became known for being a magnet for that element of society.

I didn't say I wouldn't support it anywhere, I just won't judge anybody that resists having it in their neighborhood. Especially people with little kids. I lived in an area for a year where there were a lot of homeless people, and some of the stuff that I had the unfortunate opportunity to see from my own front porch in broad daylight was ridiculous, not to mention the fact that it wasn't always safe to walk down the street...in the middle of the day. Yeah, you get used to it, and after a while it's just kind of the way things go and you don't really notice too much anymore, but I hope that Utah County doesn't turn into that kind of a neighborhood. So pass judgment on me as a cold, selfish, unchristlike Mormon. I think you're far too idealistic and naive.

[MikeWaters]

So BDB what do you prospose happen?

Nothing?

[Indy Coug]

Adam continues to make unsubstantiated allegations about the church sitting on billions of dollars that has no purpose other than to generate investment income. I'm not sure that's necessarily true. I've already pointed out that the Church has billions of dollars in assets that they are required to keep in long term investments to directly back business liabilities, like life insurance and annuity policies.

Nor is failing to publicly disclose their finances some de facto admission by the church that 'if people knew what they were REALLY doing with their money, they'd be royally pissed'.

Nor has he really demonstrated that the opening of a homeless shelter would necessarily save lives.

The church pulls in billions each year in tithing and other charitable revenues from its members. There is inevitably going to be a lag between the collection of those revenues and the appropriation of those monies to various church causes. That may create the illusion the church is sitting on a lot more money than they really are.

Bottom line, Adam has offered no factual basis to conclude what he continues to insinuate and there is a good basis to think that it's entirely appopriate that the church has at any given time billions of dollars in investments which is also already spoken for on a number of different fronts.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I believe the point I am making is that homeless people are more often than not CRIMINALS...I personally do think it would be a shame if Utah County became known for being a magnet for that element... Yeah, you get used to it, and after a while it's just kind of the way things go and you don't really notice too much anymore, but I hope that Utah County doesn't turn into that kind of a neighborhood. So pass judgment on me as a cold, selfish, unchristlike Mormon. I think you're far too idealistic and naive.

Sorry BDB, but your hypocritical arrogance about the homeless contradicts the teachings found in Mosiah chapter 4:

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a aremission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his bSpirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to aimpart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye ajudge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your bcondemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life cbelongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are arich as pertaining to the things of this world.

Here's a novel thought: we should practice what we preach...

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

So I just got off the phone with someone in the know (I won't post their name as I don't have permission and some of the info might not have been intended for wide public consumption).

My guy is sure the Church is going to come up with some money for the shelter--not sure how much or when, but he thinks they will come through.

Partly because the two transient ward bishops that have offices in the Provo DI spend over $500,000 a year on housing--mainly motel room fees. Just those two bishops. Just in Provo.

I imagine the county wide number would approach 2 million/year. Spent just by transient ward bishops just for housing.

A shelter would take a lot of that pressure off the church financially.

And save the lives of the Larry Carters of the world who for whatever reason don't find the transient bishops and get some of those funds.

They have commitments for about 6 million of the 11.2 million they need. We have a long way to go.

Why does this cost $11.2M?

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

So BDB what do you prospose happen?

Nothing?

Probably work on trying to get one zoned in a more commercial or industrial area to minimize the impact on a residential area. Maybe that's unrealistic too, I really don't know. If there isn't any kind of homeless shelter (I really thought there was one in Provo though, so I'm surprised to hear that there isn't) then there clearly is a need, but planting one in the middle of a residential area is NOT a good idea.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Requiem

Sorry BDB, but your hypocritical arrogance about the homeless contradicts the teachings found in Mosiah chapter 4:

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a aremission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his bSpirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.
21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to aimpart of the substance that ye have one to another.
22 And if ye ajudge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your bcondemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life cbelongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are arich as pertaining to the things of this world.

Here's a novel thought: we should practice what we preach...

Hmmm...odd, I don't think I read anything in there about setting up homeless shelters in residential areas. So thank you for sharing those inspiring, and yet irrelevant scriptures with me this afternoon.

Here's a novel though: Reread the post and tell me where you read that we shouldn't be charitable.

The point is not that we shouldn't help others, offer charity to others. The point is that you have to be SMART about it because not every homeless person is an innocent man/woman that became afflicted with a disability that has left him/her unable to provide for themselves. If every homeless person was in that situation yes, invite them all with open arms, and get those shelters built. They're not though, and when you build up a shelter in the middle of a neighborhood the neighborhood will decline as it becomes more unsafe.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Why does this cost $11.2M?

Housing up to 38 adults, with all the facilities needed, plus room for staff, salaries, security, etc.

Not cheap.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Housing up to 38 adults, with all the facilities needed, plus room for staff, salaries, security, etc.

Not cheap.

How many people's lives do we save in Indonesia with $11.2M?

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Hmmm...odd, I don't think I read anything in there about setting up homeless shelters in residential areas. So thank you for sharing those inspiring, and yet irrelevant scriptures with me this afternoon.

Here's a novel though: Reread the post and tell me where you read that we shouldn't be charitable.

The point is not that we shouldn't help others, offer charity to others. The point is that you have to be SMART about it because not every homeless person is an innocent man/woman that became afflicted with a disability that has left him/her unable to provide for themselves. If every homeless person was in that situation yes, invite them all with open arms, and get those shelters built. They're not though, and when you build up a shelter in the middle of a neighborhood the neighborhood will decline as it becomes more unsafe.

So, in your typically immature fashion you make a pathetic attempt to again reframe the debate. Again, the "irrelevant" scriptures simply make the point it is not our place to judge the homeless. Come back when you grow up...