01-19-2006, 01:22 PM | #1 |
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Jared Diamond's _Collapse_ [MOFOE discussion]
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Has anyone read Jared Diamond's Collapse? I heard him speak last night and got an autographed copy. His basic thesis was that societies that fall are ones that destroy their surroundings. I haven't read it yet, but I wanted to see if I can start a discussion. I realize that environmental arguments differ in validity. |
01-19-2006, 03:53 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Jared Diamond's _Collapse_ [MOFOE discussion]
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01-23-2006, 06:19 PM | #3 | |
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Cultural arguments are fishy
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Cultural explanations aren't only politically incorrect, they're metholodologically problematic. Cultural theories that explain wealth disparities, like the so-called "Protestant Work Ethic," are now mostly considered invalid. Culture is hard to model (let alone quantify), it changes all the time, there's the problem of subcultures, etc. It's no wonder in many disciplines, like political science, it's shrinking as a methodological school, and in others, like economics, it's almost non-existent.
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01-23-2006, 07:05 PM | #4 |
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Does that mean you are suggesting that if the compelling arguments from natrual science are inadequate that one should simply ignore possible culture-based explnantions becasue they are convoluted and difficult?
I, too, liked Guns, Germs and Ssteel, and I am looking forward to reading collapse, esp. now that it is in paperback, but I have a long queue of books right now and it iwll be awhile before I get to it. I look forward to any of your reivews. |
01-25-2006, 05:42 AM | #5 | |
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I have read a number of extended reviews of Collapse. And while I haven't read the observation I am about to make stated as such, it seems to me that this book has a similar problem with oversimplification. The communities that Diamond studies are quite small and isolated, and sometimes in extreme environments. For example, the primary one is a Danish (I believe) settlement in Greenland that, for example, obliterated its timber supply to duplicate European buildings including churches, etc. The relevancy of that to the United States' super consumptive but super rich and hyper ecologically self-aware culture is hard for me to follow (apparently this is the extrapolation that Diamond suggests). The evironment is cleaner in the United States than in most third-world countries. I agree that the "Protestant work ethic" explanation for the rise of the West is a stretch. But not because I reject those kinds of value judgments wholesale. I think that Protestantism actually--in its aim--was a counter force against the Rennaisance, which was a force in the direcation of the Enlightenment. And it's the Enlightenment that explains the West's dominance. On the other hand, the Protestant Reformation broke Catholic Christianity's hammerlock on European institutions. Still, accelerating progress toward the Enlightenment was an unintended byproduct of the Reformation, and "protestant work ethic" per se was not of overriding significance. This is my opinion, anyway. More on this another time.
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01-25-2006, 02:29 PM | #6 | |
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PWE also held that Confucian societies like Japan and China would never develop because individual initiative is hampered. Now that Japan has grown very fast, people are saying "Asian values" are good economics because it emphasizes dedication to the company. And "ma~nana culture" is keeping Latin America back. THERE ARE AS MANY CULTURAL EXPLANATIONS AS EXPERTS. Is there any way we can test any of these theories? No. Why not extend GGS's approach to smaller geographical regions? |
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01-25-2006, 02:40 PM | #7 |
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Guns, Germs and Steel was on PBS last night. TIVO'd it, haven't watched it yet.
Before that I watched some dildos make a trebouchet (?) which is a sort of catapault. that was pretty cool. of course I was thinking to myself, didn't they make like a thousand of these things in the movie Kingdom of Heaven already? (TIC) |
01-25-2006, 06:25 PM | #8 | ||
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster |
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01-30-2006, 06:19 PM | #9 |
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I watched the PBS doc "guns, germs and steel" part I yesterday.
Diamond, himself, appears throughout the documentary. He has a weird way of talking. I couldn't figure out the accent, but having read his wiki biog I assume it is a variation of a Bostonian accent. Anyway, he of course asserts that the geographical nature of eurasia led to technological superiority. I.e. exchange of ideas and technology were much easier in Eurasia. He talked also about the role of domestic animals. Interesting that the Mayans had a written language but the Incas did not. If one believes the Book of Mormon that steel was made in the Americas, one wonders about "lost" technologies. I.e. civilizations that were culturally advanced are wiped out by aggressive civilizations. A counter argument to Diamond's hypothesis is wouldn't variation in climate encourage trade? (i.e. I have something you can't make, and vice versa, let's trade). I don't know... I set TIVO to record part II where he talks about African conquest. The first part was about Pizarro and the Incas. |
01-30-2006, 11:09 PM | #10 | |
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BTW, it's well established that civilizations experience golden ages, fall into decline, etc., but has it ever happened that a people, say, forgot about the miracle of the wheel, or completely lost the art and technology of smelting steel? Please let me know if you are aware of any. Second question: Of course steel or iron weapons and implements thousand of years old have been found throughout Eurasia in graves, other archeological digs etc., and are continuously being found--any such discovery in the Americas yet of steel or iron items produced by the indigenous population?
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