Civil War Prophecy

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

I think it is pretty accurate, which can be seen by SU's claim that it must have been dressed up (who would dress up something to be wrong?). The only that didn't fairly happen is that it didn't turn into a world war, although that claim is sort of ambiguous, and it could still be seen as having come to pass. Otherwsie, it looks pretty good, I think.

I think there is some historical context to suggest that SO Carolina was seen by many as the likley place of rebellion, and in fact they had threatened it before 1860. Even so, it is a pretty good call on his part.

Oops, blew the world war part. Close enough, though. Right?

[BYUruss]

Originally Posted by All-American

We may have discussed this already; maybe we haven't. The teacher of my Civil War history class mentioned Section 87 today in class, naturally leading once more to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet (when at BYU . . .). I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks of this section, here reproduced in full:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

If this is accepted as prophesy-and I'm certainly not saying that it isn't-then don't you have to also accept things prophets talked about that didn't happen as failed prophesies? I once pointed this out to an investigator, and after doing some research on his own came to the conclusion it was a lucky guess. He had a list of 30 or so "failed prophesies" from church history, only a couple of which I really remember. This, of course leads to the discussion of when a prophet is spiritually speaking or when he's just speculating. All I know is BY sure did speculate quite a bit.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Oops, blew the world war part. Close enough, though. Right?

Then what on earth made you say it was probabyl dressed up? Just your typical spew without thinking approach?

[MikeWaters]

From what I know of history and JS, this prophecy was not far-fetched. In other words, a man who paid attention to current events in 1832 could read this prophecy and says "yeah, that could happen" (south carolina, war between states).

[All-American]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Oops, blew the world war part. Close enough, though. Right?

He did? I counted two of them.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

From what I know of history and JS, this prophecy was not far-fetched. In other words, a man who paid attention to current events in 1832 could read this prophecy and says "yeah, that could happen" (south carolina, war between states).

I dunno about that. Maybe he could have called that it would have started in South Carolina, given the tariff issues around that time, but most people worried about sectionalism thought of it in terms of East v. West rather than North v. South. The tiff over the tariffs, if you will remember, was between Jackson, from Tennessee, and Calhoun, from South Carolina. Even when the war did come about, most thought it would be over quickly. The South calling upon Great Britain, well, that's like BYU beating UNLV; you expect that, but they still get at least a little credit for winning. That slaves should rise up against their masters wasn't a terribly novel thought, but that it would take many days for it to happen was somewhat more novel; most doomsday scenarios predicted that the war would be triggered by a slave revolt, such as John Brown's assault on Harpers Ferry. Is verse 5 talking about the Ku Klux Klan?

I think it's a little more substantial than what any old body in 1832 could have whipped out.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

I dunno about that. Maybe he could have called that it would have started in South Carolina, given the tariff issues around that time, but most people worried about sectionalism thought of it in terms of East v. West rather than North v. South. The tiff over the tariffs, if you will remember, was between Jackson, from Tennessee, and Calhoun, from South Carolina. Even when the war did come about, most thought it would be over quickly. The South calling upon Great Britain, well, that's like BYU beating UNLV; you expect that, but they still get at least a little credit for winning. That slaves should rise up against their masters wasn't a terribly novel thought, but that it would take many days for it to happen was somewhat more novel; most doomsday scenarios predicted that the war would be triggered by a slave revolt, such as John Brown's assault on Harpers Ferry. Is verse 5 talking about the Ku Klux Klan?

I think it's a little more substantial than what any old body in 1832 could have whipped out.

I think the fact that the avg. Mormon member might not be able to tell you about this prophecy tells you about its value and relevance in the church.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think the fact that the avg. Mormon member might not be able to tell you about this prophecy tells you about its value and relevance in the church.

Oh, come now. Since when did we use what the average Mormon member might be able to tell us as a valid measuring stick for value and relevance?

[hyrum]

Originally Posted by All-American

We may have discussed this already; maybe we haven't. The teacher of my Civil War history class mentioned Section 87 today in class, naturally leading once more to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet (when at BYU . . .). I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks of this section, here reproduced in full:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

Maybe be should have quit at #4, not even sure that happened.

There was a Civil War, due to animosities that had built up for decades, but it was not Armageddon as he seemed to believe.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by hyrum

Maybe be should have quit at #4, not even sure that happened.

There was a Civil War, due to animosities that had built up for decades, but it was not Armageddon as he seemed to believe.