Minimum Wage

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Reality is what you make it.

only in your utopia

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Why is it a matter of "deserving?" Do you "deserve" to have more economic opportunities because you were born into a white middle-class family (guessing here) in a stable economic environment with safe public schools? Does a black person who is born in the inner city into a home with a single parent and multiple kids "deserve" to only earn the minimum wage?

I think you give yourself far too much credit for your successes and disparage others far too much for their failures.

Sure, many people can overcome their circumstances to be economically successful. But to pretend that others who can't overcome their circumstances "deserve" no better and you do is sickening.

As King Benjamin once asked, "Are we not all beggars?" Sometimes I read Mosiah Chapters 3-5 and wonder if they aren't printed in anyone else's Book of Mormon.

No, I don't deserve anything in the sense that I was born into a white middle class family. (Good guess). I'm saying that if people aren't willing to do what they have to do - no matter what it is - deserve their life.

There is no excuse for anyone to not get a good education. It's all a matter of if one is willing to do it. While I had the opportunity to get an education because of baseball at Marist and took advantage of it by getting a degree, when I decided to go to mortuary school, I was rejected from my first two choices because of the color of my skin. Fine, I applied somewhere else and went there. No reason to whine about it.

My guess is that liberals love to have victims because without victims, there is no reason for liberals to exist.

King Benjamin was a wise man. We all are beggars in some sense; however, there comes a time when we need to rely on ourselves to make something of our life.

[il Padrino Ute]

My reality is what I made.

My parents were both educators until I was 12 when my dad decided to get his general contractor's license and went into business for himself. He and mom worked hard to provide food and shelter for the kids. By the time I graduated high school, my dad's business was doing great, but he did all of us kids a favor and didn't buy us what we wanted or offer to pay for school. My parents decided that we would be better off if we did it ourselves.

Fortunately, I had worked my ass of in baseball to be good enough to play in exchange for my education.

Everything I have, I've done on my own. I bought my own home on my own credit. I did what had to be done.

I'll be honest that I never thought about me being white as the reason behind my ability to get where I am, because I don't play that game. I believe that anyone can succeed if they are willing to do what it takes. Some may have to work harder than others, but the key is the willingness to do it.

Perhaps to you it is sickening that I believe people deserve what they get, but I don't worry about that. Why is it sickening to think people can succeed if they want to succeed? Why do they have to have a safety net to fail?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Out of curiosity, do you believe that your environment (or anyone's environment) has any impact at all on your likelihood of future economic success? Or are you going to take all of the credit for any successes you may have had in life?

I remember meeting a kid on my mission in Chile who went out every day to sell gum and trinkets on a bus. I found him annoying, because he seemed to be on every bus I rode and he was always so pushy with the sales. One day, I happened to come across the kid at his home. His father had just beaten him to a bloody pulp (he was 6) for not selling enough for the day. The father then took the kid's money and sent him off to buy some cheap wine (so the father could then get drunk and beat the kid some more).

Now I realize that the kid just wasn't making his own reality. I mean, he was a great salesman! The future is very bright for that lad with all of his talents and opportunities (and please don't try and pretend that you think things just like this don't happen in the US).

Studies have shown that even your great-grandparents circumstances can be a good predictor of your economic success.

[FMCoug]

As most of you know, I grew up in a Children's Home, joined the Church when I was 15. Went on a mission and then to college (all on financial aid) and am now doing quite well. Most of the kids I grew up with are either in jail, dead, or complete losers working dead end jobs, multiple divorces or children out of wedlock, etc.

What is the difference between them and me? If environment is the determining factor, why have I accomplished what I have? The liberal line about lack of educational and job oppotunities is complete BULLSHIT. And I for one, am one conservative who is not just saying this from an ivory tower. I have walked the walk.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

As most of you know, I grew up in a Children's Home, joined the Church when I was 15. Went on a mission and then to college (all on financial aid) and am now doing quite well. Most of the kids I grew up with are either in jail, dead, or complete losers working dead end jobs, multiple divorces or children out of wedlock, etc.

What is the difference between them and me? If environment is the determining factor, why have I accomplished what I have? The liberal line about lack of educational and job oppotunities is complete BULLSHIT. And I for one, am one conservative who is not just saying this from an ivory tower. I have walked the walk.

I haven't been following the thread, but if it's an argument against environment, read the last sentence of your first paragraph.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I haven't been following the thread, but if it's an argument against environment, read the last sentence of your first paragraph.

It's an argument FOR personal responsibility and taking the opportunities available. Environment clearly has an impact ... no argument there.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

It's an argument FOR personal responsibility and taking the opportunities available. Environment clearly has an impact ... no argument there.

the kids in my ward, where no one in the family has ever been to college, are facing an uphill battle. As far as I can tell, only one is serious about his academics, and is rising above his background.

My parents struggled with money for most of my life. But they were far ahead of the desperate poor in that they owned a modest home, and my dad had a PhD. So I guess in a way, I rose above my background in terms of career and education, but not by *that* much. If I hadn't had parents encouraging me to do better, I don't know where I'd be.

[Indy Coug]

I'm still awaiting the CG liberal cognoscenti to tell me how my minimum wage posts show that I'm in lock step with the GOP.

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by All-American

I think Minimum Wage is an imperfect solution to a problem for which we do not have a better solution.

Ideally, people are paid what their worth. But in a perfect economic system, each employed human being would be making the greatest contribution possible to the economy-- and I don't believe that people are not capable of contributing more than 7.50 and hour.

Given that the economic system is not perfect, and we have not been able to figure out how to get everybody to contribute to the fullest extent, minimum wage is a good safety net to make sure people don't get screwed. I reluctantly accept it.

You don't believe that people are not capable of contributing more than 7.50 an hour? Try this on for size:

I work in the Document Management business. One facet of our business is a service bureau where we scan our customer's documents and convert them into digital images. Before we can scan the documents, they need to be prepared: staples pulled, paperclips removed, tears taped, etc. We have several employees that spend 40 hours a week pulling staples. Most of these employees have extremely low education, skill, common sense, and life mangement skill levels. It takes a special kind of person to sit there and pull staples for 40 hours a week. Most of these people are not self-sufficient from their employment and never will be. They generally live with a parent or some other type of guardian. Most of them don't have their own transportation. Some of them are just housewives looking to make an extra buck with minimal responsibility. Some of these people have been doing this job for 15+ years. We pay them minimum wage.

We charge our customers in terms of cents per image. In the past, we used to charge between $.09 and $.10 per image. Now, we face competition from cheaper service bureaus in the Philippines, Mexico, Bangladesh, etc. Our prices have been driven down to $.05 and $.06. When a minimum wage increase happens, we either have to eat the cost or else raise our price to the customer. If we raise the price to our customers too much then the business will go to Bangladesh. If the business goes to Bangladesh then we will be laying off our lowest skilled workers - workers that can't really compete in any other setting.

Business is like water, traffic, and electricity - they all seek the easiest path. Water will flow to the lowest level. Traffic and electricity will flow through the path of least resistance. Business will go to the lowest cost provider all other things being equal. In a business like software development or other knowledge work, all other things aren't always equal. The Indian programmer may be 5 times as cheap as me but he doesn't have the communication skills and analysis skills and experience that I have. Thus, employers are willing to pay a higher price for my skills because all other things aren't equal. But if the only thing I'm competing on is price then I better watch out because someone will always come along and do it cheaper. In the case of staple pulling, about the only thing there is to compete on is price. It's not like these workers can be "retrained" for a different career. Staple pulling is a stable and safe environment and provides basic employment for people that would find operating the grill or deep frier at McDonalds a dangerous challenge. In my experience as a businessman, raising the minimum wage only hurts the very people it is supposed to be helping.

I just don't understand what makes the do-gooder social engineering type of people, with their "one size fits all" approach and their wasteful, bureaucratically administered 'solutions', so completely unable to grasp the Law of Unintended Consequences?