Ok, Obamaniacs (Cali)....

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Venkman

Oh good heavens, one doesn't have to argue for state ownership/control of all industry to be a socialist. Obama's rhetoric is classic code for socialism-lite.

Actually, to be a socialist one most certainly does have to advocate the ownership of the means of production by the government. It kind of changes the meaning of the word "socialism" to argue otherwise.

You also indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Marxism" when you interchange socialism with Marxism.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Let's see, Obama thinks the wealth should be spread out more evenly amongst all, be it those who take the financial risk to make the money or the labor used to provide the service or goods. He doesn't believe some should have/earn more than others.

That is Marxism.

Cali, spare me the condescension about thinking I don't know what it is. Perhaps it just bothers you that your Messiah is just this side of being a communist.

Adam, it's not good policy. If it were, it would work. Marxism leads to communism and that doesn't work. Don't think so? Look at the former Soviet Union for an example.

And Mike, unless I'm mistaken, the Book of Mormon also teaches us to not be slothful or lazy. Those who are not willing to do their part should not have as much as those who are.

Republicans also believe wealth should be spread out "more evenly amongst all." The difference between them and Obama is one of degree. Nothing in the statement you cited above indicates that he wants all wealth equally distributed and all means of production owned by the government. He indicates he wants the wealth more evenly distributed, and all you hear is "Marxism."

The entire progressive tax system is one that advocates a more even distribution of wealth. The existence of welfare is as well, among many other aspects of our civilization. To take the leap that any advocacy for a more even distribution of wealth equates to Marxism is laughable.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by creekster

By what measure(s)?

The euro and the pound for starters.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Republicans also believe wealth should be spread out "more evenly amongst all." The difference between them and Obama is one of degree. Nothing in the statement you cited above indicates that he wants all wealth equally distributed and all means of production owned by the government. He indicates he wants the wealth more evenly distributed, and all you hear is "Marxism."

The entire progressive tax system is one that advocates a more even distribution of wealth. The existence of welfare is as well, among many other aspects of our civilization. To take the leap that any advocacy for a more even distribution of wealth equates to Marxism is laughable.

you are talking to people who would eliminate virtually all taxes and all safety nets.

poor kid sick? screw him. If he wants to live, a rich person needs to make a donation in his name.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Republicans also believe wealth should be spread out "more evenly amongst all." The difference between them and Obama is one of degree. Nothing in the statement you cited above indicates that he wants all wealth equally distributed and all means of production owned by the government. He indicates he wants the wealth more evenly distributed, and all you hear is "Marxism."

The entire progressive tax system is one that advocates a more even distribution of wealth. The existence of welfare is as well, among many other aspects of our civilization. To take the leap that any advocacy for a more even distribution of wealth equates to Marxism is laughable.

This debate is useless.

Obama's speech was clearly one of general political rhetoric, not specific policy.

Those that are nitpicking are just annoyed that he gave a nice speech and that everyone cheered loudly for him.

People should be less concerned with Obama's speech and more concerned (and honest) about why our current sitting President doesn't enjoy anywhere near that sort of respect, love, or even passing interest abroad.

I was happy to see crowds of pro-US foreigners. I think Obama did a nice job with his speech. I doubt very highly that his speech will save the world and I doubt even more that it was a masked attempt to advocate a shift from capitalism. Attemps to deconstruct the speech are pointless. Wait until he gives a SOTU address and then we can talk.

And for those anti-socialists, again I ask you....how did you enjoy those government subsidized student loans?

On a side note, and I mean this honestly....what the heck is McCain doing right now? Where is he? Why is he not doing high profile things to up his visibility?

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Actually, to be a socialist one most certainly does have to advocate the ownership of the means of production by the government. It kind of changes the meaning of the word "socialism" to argue otherwise.

You also indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Marxism" when you interchange socialism with Marxism.

Socialists never come out for state owned means of production, they're all gradualists, fabians, incrementalists. Implementing one socialist program after another, bit by bit. But what's the difference who owns the means of production, it makes little difference if the state controls the means of production via taxes, regulation, etc.

But if it makes you feel better, I'll refer to him as a fascist from now on - someone who favors the "third way" between capitalism and socialism.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This debate is useless.

Obama's speech was clearly one of general political rhetoric, not specific policy.

Those that are nitpicking are just annoyed that he gave a nice speech and that everyone cheered loudly for him.

People should be less concerned with Obama's speech and more concerned (and honest) about why our current sitting President doesn't enjoy anywhere near that sort of respect, love, or even passing interest abroad.

I was happy to see crowds of pro-US foreigners. I think Obama did a nice job with his speech. I doubt very highly that his speech will save the world and I doubt even more that it was a masked attempt to advocate a shift from capitalism. Attemps to deconstruct the speech are pointless. Wait until he gives a SOTU address and then we can talk.

And for those anti-socialists, again I ask you....how did you enjoy those government subsidized student loans?

On a side note, and I mean this honestly....what the heck is McCain doing right now? Where is he? Why is he not doing high profile things to up his visibility?

I appreciate my government-backed mortgage, my govt-backed savings account, and my govt-backed education loans.

Among other things.

Govt-backed roads, govt-backed schools are nice as well.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

you are talking to people who would eliminate virtually all taxes and all safety nets.

poor kid sick? screw him. If he wants to live, a rich person needs to make a donation in his name.

This is what I don't understand....because it certainly sounds like that is what people are advocating...and I don't grasp that attitude.

It is like talking to my Utah FIL (not AZ FIL).....he says, "poor people are lazy and should work harder." While I dont disagree that SOME poor people are lazy and should work harder (as are some wealthy people), I can't understand how he has convinced himself to think in such black and white generalities...as though the magical solution for ALL downtrodden is simply to work harder.

I have stated before that I cut through Skid Row almost every day I work downtown because it saves me a chunk of time on my commute.

If I were any one of those people down there....and I saw the "light" today...and decided that tomorrow would be the day I begin to work harder....what the heck would I do without government programs to get me going? Who is realistically going to hire me? Or even talk to me? Where am I going to live? Shower? Many of these folks cannot even read and have nowhere to go. They want to change things, but the reality is that it is almost impossible.

I think the next time I drive through Skid Row, I will pull over and just tell everyone to work harder. Also, I will buy some crank.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This debate is useless.

Obama's speech was clearly one of general political rhetoric, not specific policy.

Those that are nitpicking are just annoyed that he gave a nice speech and that everyone cheered loudly for him.

People should be less concerned with Obama's speech and more concerned (and honest) about why our current sitting President doesn't enjoy anywhere near that sort of respect, love, or even passing interest abroad.

I was happy to see crowds of pro-US foreigners. I think Obama did a nice job with his speech. I doubt very highly that his speech will save the world and I doubt even more that it was a masked attempt to advocate a shift from capitalism. Attemps to deconstruct the speech are pointless. Wait until he gives a SOTU address and then we can talk.

And for those anti-socialists, again I ask you....how did you enjoy those government subsidized student loans?

On a side note, and I mean this honestly....what the heck is McCain doing right now? Where is he? Why is he not doing high profile things to up his visibility?

Agreed.

And McCain appears to have all but given up at this point. Going to a German sausage restaurant on the day Obama speaks in Germany? Really?

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Those that are nitpicking are just annoyed that he gave a nice speech and that everyone cheered loudly for him.

Yeah, but he was cheered by Germans who also cheered for Hitler. What can you say to that? Nothing. Just like I thought.