Ok, Obamaniacs (Cali)....

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

What about free police and firemen?

It would be interesting to arm a policeman with a hidden camera.

Then have him go out on calls. When he finished helping someone at their house (domestic disturbance, prowler, cat in a tree, etc...) the policeman then whips out a credit card swiper and demands payment. If the people cannot pay up, the cop releases the prowler.

There are legitimate functions of government. The question is, since the people created the government, which rights do the people have that they can delegate to the government? I have the right to defend myself and put out fires, so I can delegate that power to government. But I don't have the right to take 100 bucks from my rich neighbor and give it to my poor neighbor, so I can't delegate that right to the government.

Obviously, there are gray areas, but I maintain that the wealth redistribution of welfare state programs is basically state sponsored theft. But yes, it's hard to overcome Mike's emotional pleas re: poor sick kids dying, so I suppose some sort of safety net will never go away. That doesn't mean we need to expand it, and I think that net should be at the bare minimum and many programs done away with (programs that don't lift, but perpetually keep generations in poverty and destroy the work ethic of those "benefitting") or provided at the state level where there is more accountability to the people. All I hear from democrats (and many republicans) is an expansion of the welfare state into a more European cradle to grave system. I am very much opposed to that.

My $.02.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Venkman

There are legitimate functions of government. The question is, since the people created the government, which rights do the people have that they can delegate to the government? I have the right to defend myself and put out fires, so I can delegate that power to government. But I don't have the right to take 100 bucks from my rich neighbor and give it to my poor neighbor, so I can't delegate that right to the government.

Obviously, there are gray areas, but I maintain that the wealth redistribution of welfare state programs is basically state sponsored theft. But yes, it's hard to overcome Mike's emotional pleas re: poor sick kids dying, so I suppose some sort of safety net will never go away. That doesn't mean we need to expand it, and I think that net should be at the bare minimum and many programs done away with (programs that don't lift, but perpetually keep generations in poverty and destroy the work ethic of those "benefitting") or provided at the state level where there is more accountability to the people. All I hear from democrats (and many republicans) is an expansion of the welfare state into a more European cradle to grave system. I am very much opposed to that.

My $.02.

I'm pretty sure some here would say that Jesus teaches that sick kid should die and receive no support.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's not your wealth. You don't own one penny of it. It is the Lord's money, and your duty is to help others.

Fuck you. I'll decide what my duty is. You and your government stay the hell away from me. You are a fanatic. Please tell me you're just joking/trolling? Do you really think you have the right to tell someone else what their duty is? I'm leaning more and more towards getting the hell away from organized religion with shit like this being spewed. Who are the real mullahs?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

It's funny cause I'm actually reading shit like this in Atlas Shrugged right now. Interesting to see the parallels. Ayn Rand was something else.

Here are the problems I personally have with this statement.

I don't want to share wealth equally. I want to keep what I earn and what I'm worth, and let others do the same, be it more or less than me. I want only what I can earn for myself, nothing more and nothing less. And damn anyone to hell who thinks they deserve a piece of what's mine and means to take it from me by theivery or government redistribution.

The comment about "forging trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth" scares the living shit out of me, and I think most of us here can read this for what it is. The market already does a pretty good job of doing this already, as the work that creates wealth is done by innovators and risk-takers, not unskilled labor. God Bless America for being what it is and has been - a place where creativity and innovation result in wealth and prosperity (among other things) for those that deserve it - NOT everybody. I'm left to wonder if we'll stay this way for much longer.

This sounds like my FIL again.

I am realizing why this sort of approach annoys me and confuses me so....

It is so extreme. It only allows for one approach....like mikewaters said, but with less profanity, "mine, mine, mine."

Reaping what you sow is definitely a gospel principle. But your approach seems completely skewed to the darwinist component of the law of the harvest. It is completely devoid of compassion or thought for anyone else but yourself. According to your philosophy, if you are weak, meek, or otherwise incapable of producing, that is your own problem.

I really hope I am misreading your post. If you dont mind, and I am being serious, can you help me identify the compassion in your post? The bigger spiritual picture that says, "yes, hey I have earned all of this, but maybe I don't NEED all of this, so I don't mind giving some of it up....not all of it, but some of it....because there are others who may need it and are not as capable as me of getting it."

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

Fuck you. I'll decide what my duty is. You and your government stay the hell away from me. You are a fanatic. Please tell me you're just joking/trolling? Do you really think you have the right to tell someone else what their duty is? I'm leaning more and more towards getting the hell away from organized religion with shit like this being spewed. Who are the real mullahs?

Well, I think you are far away from the gospel right now as is.

Overcoming selfishness is hard to do. Some people will never learn the first thing about it.

Tell us your story, how you came to these beliefs about your fellow man.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This sounds like my FIL again.

I am realizing why this sort of approach annoys me and confuses me so....

It is so extreme. It only allows for one approach....like mikewaters said, but with less profanity, "mine, mine, mine."

Reaping what you sow is definitely a gospel principle. But your approach seems completely skewed to the darwinist component of the law of the harvest. It is completely devoid of compassion or thought for anyone else but yourself. According to your philosophy, if you are weak, meek, or otherwise incapable of producing, that is your own problem.

I really hope I am misreading your post. If you dont mind, and I am being serious, can you help me identify the compassion in your post? The bigger spiritual picture that says, "yes, hey I have earned all of this, but maybe I don't NEED all of this, so I don't mind giving some of it up....not all of it, but some of it....because there are others who may need it and are not as capable as me of getting it."

DDD, ironically I just finished watching Rashomon for the first time tonight.

That has to be one the most cutting, true movies every made.

This thread is a witness to it.

We are all selfish, lying creatures. But some of us feel bad for it, and want to do better, and actually try.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Colly Wolly

Absolutely, and it is my right to redistribute my earned wealth as I see fit. I will not be compelled. You are the one advocating Satan's plan here dude.

Sadly, I think I read your initial post correctly.

Your post tonight reminds me of that old Daffy Duck cartoon...Ali Baba Bunny. Seriously, this is what you sound like.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Venkman

But yes, it's hard to overcome Mike's emotional pleas re: poor sick kids dying, so I suppose some sort of safety net will never go away.

Ironically, these pleas are not really his. Nor do I think mikewaters would try to claim them as his own.

That is my whole point in this thread....how can LDS people who claim to believe in the scriptures justify this attitude of "this is all mine and nobody better take anything from me." Also, "if you are needy, it is your own fault."

Totally baffles me.

mikewaters was certainly not the first person to argue for a little compassion for the poor. But it appears that on CG, he is one of the only people willing to do it.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Well, I think you are far away from the gospel right now as is.

Overcoming selfishness is hard to do. Some people will never learn the first thing about it.

Tell us your story, how you came to these beliefs about your fellow man.

Man, I don't have all the answers, but the way I understand the gospel lately is that, above all else, I'm put on this earth with one responsibility, to prepare ME, MYSELF, for Godhood. I do that by living the way God lives, making the choices he would make, of my own free will and choice, not by being compelled. Is it impossible to fathom that even though I want an environment where I am the master of my own wealth and possessions, that I could also CHOOSE to pay tithing, to give to charity, to give someone a lift or some spare change? Are the two really mutually exclusive? I want to be the one to make those decisions. I do not want anyone else making them for me.

Or, you could Satan's route and force people to do the right thing. That's where the true growth lies. Economic prosperity, personal happiness, as history has shown, these are the results of compelling people to do what is right and redistributing their wealth for them.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

DDD, ironically I just finished watching Rashomon for the first time tonight.

That has to be one the most cutting, true movies every made.

This thread is a witness to it.

We are all selfish, lying creatures. But some of us feel bad for it, and want to do better, and actually try.

I wish more were online to chime in because this actually shocks me to hear. And no, I am not trolling.

It is fun to tease and make jokes, etc....but when push comes to shove, do LDS people really think, "this is ALL mine...I earned it....I oppose any attempts to take some of it and redistribute it to those that may need it more."

Yikes, man. Hey, I hate paying taxes, too, and I love a nice payday, but I don't think I am ready to throw the needy off a bridge just yet.