A question for our Greek scholars:

[Sleeping in EQ]

Are there any new testament manuscripts or fragments that have the definite article (ho) before theos at the end of John 1:1?

I like Moffatt's qualititative position, which is reflected in his translation, the New English Bible, the Revised English Bible, etc., but I'm curious as to whether there are any manuscripts that support the definitive position with the presence of "ho" (and that therefore flirt with Sabellianism).

Note, I know that the John 1:1 mess can't be resolved linguistically, but I'm interested in whether the definitive position can be butressed in this way...

[MikeWaters]

I'll check with Imus to see if "ho" was used. I'm guessing he will say "yes."

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Are there any new testament manuscripts or fragments that have the definite article (ho) before theos at the end of John 1:1?

I like Moffatt's qualititative position, which is reflected in his translation, the New English Bible, the Revised English Bible, etc., but I'm curious as to whether there are any manuscripts that support the definitive position with the presence of "ho" (and that therefore flirt with Sabellianism).

Note, I know that the John 1:1 mess can't be resolved linguistically, but I'm interested in whether the definitive position can be butressed in this way...

Manuscript L (which dates to the 8th century) is the only known manuscript to include the definite article in that passage. Curiously, the variant is not mentioned either in the critical apparatus or the variae lectiones minores in the Nestle Aland Greek NT (the blue one). But if it had been noticed the editors probably decided that it was obviously added and that the reading had no claim to antiquity. If there had been any theological controversy surrounding that article in antiquity, we'd probably see evidence of it in older mss, IMO.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

Manuscript L (which dates to the 8th century) is the only known manuscript to include the definite article in that passage. Curiously, the variant is not mentioned either in the critical apparatus or the variae lectiones minores in the Nestle Aland Greek NT (the blue one). But if it had been noticed the editors probably decided that it was obviously added and that the reading had no claim to antiquity. If there had been any theological controversy surrounding that article in antiquity, we'd probably see evidence of it in older mss, IMO.

Interesting.

Where did you look to find this? I'm not a bible scholar, so maybe there's an easy answer, but I am hard pressed to imagine where to find textual variations not contained in the apparatus crit. Teach me.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

Manuscript L (which dates to the 8th century) is the only known manuscript to include the definite article in that passage. Curiously, the variant is not mentioned either in the critical apparatus or the variae lectiones minores in the Nestle Aland Greek NT (the blue one). But if it had been noticed the editors probably decided that it was obviously added and that the reading had no claim to antiquity. If there had been any theological controversy surrounding that article in antiquity, we'd probably see evidence of it in older mss, IMO.

Wonderful. Thanks, CHC!

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by Solon

Interesting.

Where did you look to find this? I'm not a bible scholar, so maybe there's an easy answer, but I am hard pressed to imagine where to find textual variations not contained in the apparatus crit. Teach me.

Many Bible scholars wouldn't know where to find it either. It's just us text critic nerds who would have these kinds of tools. There is a nice series of manuscript collations done by Russell Swanson, arranged by NT book, and collated against the most highly regarded manuscript, Codex Vaticanus (B). While no collation collection is exhaustive (there are just too many mss.), he at least includes the papyri, uncials and most important minuscules. The volume on John is called _New Testament Greek Manuscripts: John_. It is published by Sheffield academic press. So far there are volumes for the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Cor., and Galatians. There is also an ongoing project called the IGNTP (Int'l Greek New Testament Project), which David Parker is currently heading up (Bart Ehrman is also on the board of editors). It has been going on for over 50 years and so far they have only covered the mss tradition exhaustively for Luke (they are going for fully comprehensive collations)! The John volume covering just the papyri[!] is published (the volumes covering the majuscules and minuscules are forthcoming), but I don't own it as I don't have an extra hundred something dollars lying around (and that's just per volume). I believe the Luke volumes were published by Oxford, and the current ones are being published by Brill, which I'm sure you know breaks the bank for scholars with their prices. Ultimately, I'm sure the IGNTP volumes will be even more comprehensive than the Swanson volumes.
[Okay I just found the IGNTP's website: http://www.igntp.org/ ]

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

Many Bible scholars wouldn't know where to find it either. It's just us text critic nerds who would have these kinds of tools. There is a nice series of manuscript collations done by Russell Swanson, arranged by NT book, and collated against the most highly regarded manuscript, Codex Vaticanus (B). While no collation collection is exhaustive (there are just too many mss.), he at least includes the papyri, uncials and most important minuscules. The volume on John is called _New Testament Greek Manuscripts: John_. It is published by Sheffield academic press. So far there are volumes for the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Cor., and Galatians. There is also an ongoing project called the IGNTP (Int'l Greek New Testament Project), which David Parker is currently heading up (Bart Ehrman is also on the board of editors). It has been going on for over 50 years and so far they have only covered the mss tradition exhaustively for Luke (they are going for fully comprehensive collations)! The John volume covering just the papyri[!] is published (the volumes covering the majuscules and minuscules are forthcoming), but I don't own it as I don't have an extra hundred something dollars lying around (and that's just per volume). I believe the Luke volumes were published by Oxford, and the current ones are being published by Brill, which I'm sure you know breaks the bank for scholars with their prices. Ultimately, I'm sure the IGNTP volumes will be even more comprehensive than the Swanson volumes.
[Okay I just found the IGNTP's website: http://www.igntp.org/ ]

Awesome. Thanks.

Those are some monster projects. It kind of reminds me of what 19th century Germans did with Greek inscriptions, although those corpora are in huge need of updating. Somehow, it seems like internet technology could make a more fluid, easily edited repository of mss. and the like. In my dreams, I know.

[TheSizzle36]

Holy freaking crap... I understand next to nothing that you guys said. And you are probably proud of that.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

Many Bible scholars wouldn't know where to find it either. It's just us text critic nerds who would have these kinds of tools. There is a nice series of manuscript collations done by Russell Swanson, arranged by NT book, and collated against the most highly regarded manuscript, Codex Vaticanus (B). While no collation collection is exhaustive (there are just too many mss.), he at least includes the papyri, uncials and most important minuscules. The volume on John is called _New Testament Greek Manuscripts: John_. It is published by Sheffield academic press. So far there are volumes for the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Cor., and Galatians. There is also an ongoing project called the IGNTP (Int'l Greek New Testament Project), which David Parker is currently heading up (Bart Ehrman is also on the board of editors). It has been going on for over 50 years and so far they have only covered the mss tradition exhaustively for Luke (they are going for fully comprehensive collations)! The John volume covering just the papyri[!] is published (the volumes covering the majuscules and minuscules are forthcoming), but I don't own it as I don't have an extra hundred something dollars lying around (and that's just per volume). I believe the Luke volumes were published by Oxford, and the current ones are being published by Brill, which I'm sure you know breaks the bank for scholars with their prices. Ultimately, I'm sure the IGNTP volumes will be even more comprehensive than the Swanson volumes.
[Okay I just found the IGNTP's website: http://www.igntp.org/ ]

I could purchase those, so how do I get them?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Holy freaking crap... I understand next to nothing that you guys said. And you are probably proud of that.

I'm with you. I understood each individual word but strung together as they were went right past me like a Nolan Ryan fastball.