Critiques of Church leadership

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Robin

My FARMS brother sent me a .jpg of a MesoAmerican artifact that looked SLIGHTLY elephant-like. It made me smile.

There you go cherry-picking again. You should restrain yourself.

However, the fact that you have a "FARMS brother" explains volumes.

Originally Posted by Robin

Another thing that makes me smile is that from now on I am going to think of MikeWaters as a 'Mormon Intellectual.'

Ouch. Hey, if you are going to offend folks, why not go all out, eh?

Originally Posted by Robin

Apologists play a strange role in religion. On the one hand, they shouldn't even be necessary. You don't need pseudo-science to suggest the possibility that Christ atoned for your sins, or that he died and was resurrected. You accept those events with faith, and faith alone. And if you have faith to believe that a man can be killed, and then come back to life... or that one individuals suffering can alleviate the consequences of your sins, then why couldn't you accept that JS was everything that he claimed to be, and that the BOM is everything JS claimed it was? They are all comparable chasms, and it ultimately requires a bridge of faith to 'just get over it.' In the words of one popular Mormon Intellectual, (MikeWaters), faith and reason are completely different approaches to religious belief, and faith is the ONLY sure foundation for a testimony. On the other hand, institutions like the church realize that they are more successful in their proselytizing efforts when there is a general air of plausibility about certain events. There enter the apologists -- the plausibility fabricators.

I find it odd that I have morphed into an apologist for the apologists; something I don't normally do. I don't even follow their work that much and I agree with much of what you say above about faith, but I think you and SU are unfairly portraying the motivation and integrity of the apologists. I recall reading at one time about when the prism was first invented. When people saw that you could use a simple mechanical device to create a "rainbow", it caused a massive crisis of faith since according to the bible a rainbow was a sign given by God. Seems pretty silly now to lose faith over something like that, but I think there are plenty of parallels to modern times. Yes, in many ways, Joseph Smith and the BOM are not what they claim to be. To the pure rationalist, even the slightest flaw or contradiction can be magnified into a reason to abandon ship. It seems to me that an apologist sees himself as a therapist on the ledge, trying to convince the jumper that the prism is not worth dying over. Deceptive? Fraudulent? Sometimes yes, I suppose. But to paint them all as scam artists who see this as a business is nonsense, IMO. Keep in mind that much of the "debunking" done by the apologists is in response to mountains of anti-mormon literature penned by born agains who pick apart the BOM point by point and then go to church and preach that the earth was created in seven days and there was a literal flood in Noah's time. What is wrong with attempting to provide a response and a resource as an aid for those who lack either the time or the intellect to properly sift through these claims?

[Robin]

Originally Posted by homeboy

There you go cherry-picking again. You should restrain yourself.

Cherry-picking and lack of restraint? Take everything that FARMS has published, write it down on note cards and pin it to a wall. Now throw a dart and pick a topic. I would bet that 9 times out of 10 the 'apologist's pattern' I described would be represented, 100%.

Originally Posted by homeboy

However, the fact that you have a "FARMS brother" explains volumes.

He is a kid in high school, about to go to BYU and then serve a mission. He is a nice bright kid, and my guess is that his own path of apostasy will take an entirely different route... right through the FARMS building. Why do I predict that? Because FARMS is a house of cards and he is smart enough to eventually see that. By investing so much into the FARMS way of thinking, he guarantees that the eventual fall will be from that much higher a place. It is going to be hard and fast, and probably ugly. I'll keep him in my prayers.

What does having a FARMS brother explain to you?

Originally Posted by homeboy

Ouch. Hey, if you are going to offend folks, why not go all out, eh?

The fact that some people on this site list MikeWaters as a Mormon Intellectual, without an ounce of irony, tickles me to the core. I am a little cork bobbing in waves of pure delight.

Originally Posted by homeboy

I find it odd that I have morphed into an apologist for the apologists; something I don't normally do. I don't even follow their work that much and I agree with much of what you say above about faith, but I think you and SU are unfairly portraying the motivation and integrity of the apologists.

I have a funny way of causing people to take the wrong position by simply posting my own POV. For example, up to the day that Mike and I broke up, he was a big George Bush apologist. Then we stopped arguing politics, and the next thing I know he has come around to his senses.

I think the faithful of CG owe me (and SU and NS) a big favor. I think our POVs harden the testimonial resolve of folks here, causing even the level-headed folks like yourself to stake out positions of faith that surprise. Your Mormon great-grandchildren will thank us.

I don't think that the FARMS people are consciously deceptive or fraudulent. I DO think they see themselves as fabricators of plausibility. And what choice do they have? The church has its critics. People can either defend their ideas or not. There will always be some who feel the need to defend.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Robin

I have a funny way of causing people to take the wrong position by simply posting my own POV. For example, up to the day that Mike and I broke up, he was a big George Bush apologist. Then we stopped arguing politics, and the next thing I know he has come around to his senses.

I'm no Bush apologist, the guy has really done things that piss me off, but do you honestly believe that those who support him are out of it? That to distance one's self from him is coming to one's senses?

That sounds like any liberal anywhere. Squawk! Squawk!

[Robin]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I'm no Bush apologist, the guy has really done things that piss me off, but do you honestly believe that those who support him are out of it? That to distance one's self from him is coming to one's senses?

That sounds like any liberal anywhere. Squawk! Squawk!

He will be remembered as one of the worst presidents... and Mike will be remembered for having voted for him twice.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Robin

He will be remembered as one of the worst presidents... and Mike will be remembered for having voted for him twice.

I can't disagree with him beiong remembered as one of the worst Presidents. I consider him to be. I also voted for him twice, as there were two opponents whom I feel would have been worse. And if I had to choose between him and a Dem other than Lieberman, I'd vote a third time.

I guess what I'm saying is that I vote for whom I think will suck less. Does this make me a full blown political cynic?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Robin

I think the faithful of CG owe me (and SU and NS) a big favor. I think our POVs harden the testimonial resolve of folks here, causing even the level-headed folks like yourself to stake out positions of faith that surprise. Your Mormon great-grandchildren will thank us.

Please. Your lack of humility seems to know, or at least show, few bounds. I and my posterity may or may not remain faithful to the LDS belief system but I assure you it will have nothing to do with your pedantic ramblings. I find this latest conceit the most obnoxious thing you have yet posted. I wonder if NS and SU place themselves with you in the pantheon of solidifiers of the faith?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Robin

He is a kid in high school, about to go to BYU and then serve a mission. He is a nice bright kid, and my guess is that his own path of apostasy will take an entirely different route... right through the FARMS building. Why do I predict that? Because FARMS is a house of cards and he is smart enough to eventually see that. By investing so much into the FARMS way of thinking, he guarantees that the eventual fall will be from that much higher a place. It is going to be hard and fast, and probably ugly. I'll keep him in my prayers.

What does having a FARMS brother explain to you?

Your FARMS brother is in high school? And I thought we were having a serious discussion. Maybe try to research FARMS yourself instead of having it explained to you by a 16 yo kid.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Your FARMS brother is in high school? And I thought we were having a serious discussion. Maybe try to research FARMS yourself instead of having it explained to you by a 16 yo kid.

Well, maybe it's been simplified to a level comprehended. Perhaps that parody of simplification represents somebody complex understanding of the subject matter.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

Please. Your lack of humility seems to know, or at least show, few bounds. I and my posterity may or may not remain faithful to the LDS belief system but I assure you it will have nothing to do with your pedantic ramblings. I find this latest conceit the most obnoxious thing you have yet posted. I wonder if NS and SU place themselves with you in the pantheon of solidifiers of the faith?

Robin has a point. I've seen that apostates and antis harden the resolve of many who otherwise wouldn't be overly enamored of the Chruch's creed or its culture. Apostates and anis are ironic allies of the Church in that they often drive some of the Church's most intelligent members back into her arms. This may well be a subplot in the Waters-Robin love-hate saga.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by creekster

Please. Your lack of humility seems to know, or at least show, few bounds. I and my posterity may or may not remain faithful to the LDS belief system but I assure you it will have nothing to do with your pedantic ramblings. I find this latest conceit the most obnoxious thing you have yet posted. I wonder if NS and SU place themselves with you in the pantheon of solidifiers of the faith?

Do you have no ability to see self-depricating humor at all? If I joke that my ability to persuade is SO pitiful that I tend to drive people to take the opposite position by my mere stating a point of view, I AM THE BUTT OF THAT JOKE. If you think I was seriously taking credit for strengthening the testimonies of your great grandchildren, then you really ARE as old as you pretend

Seriously, I was poking at myself. I hope I don't have to write 'TIC' on everything where it is intended.