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MikeWaters · 12-11-2006, 02:30 PM

No this does not refer to Pres. Bush's seeming ability to make people like Snipe think he is God...

Rather it refers to a sort of outdoors survivalism.

With Mr. Kim's death, it has been on my mind. How would I have tried to survive?

Last night I was reading up on what sort of knife to buy. I came across some stuff about the Mora knife and that led to stuff about a couple of bushcraft teachers/authors.

One is Mors Kochanski. I happened on a few documents and interviews about him.

And then there is a guy named Ray Mears, out of the UK. He's done books and TV shows. He doesnt' preach mere survival. He teaches about outdoor appreciation and respect for indigenous cultures, etc.

There is a vast amount of knowledge re: survival that is slipping away. I think it would be a fun hobby to become more knowledgeable. For example, what plants are edible, how to chop down small trees with a Mora knife. Mutiple fire building methods.

One thing Kochanski would do in his classes is have his students dip their feet in an icy stream. Wearing wool socks, there feet quickly dry and warm as they walk sans-shoes across the snow and ice. If they keep their shoe on, their feet will freeze. Anyway, I will soon learn more.

My scouts didn't know they have a budding Rambo on their hands.

hyrum · 12-11-2006, 03:21 PM

A colleague told me that he saw a survival expert comment on a news show about James Kim. His opinion was that a human can live for a week or more without food, a few days without water, and maybe a day without shelter in those conditions. Kim's mistake then was that he walked away from his shelter. Someone else said that hold told his wife he thought they were only 4-5 miles from the nearest town/inhabited place, but in reality they were about 15 miles away.

Personally I would have scouted out the territory by walking during the warmest part of the day on the road mile or so, then go back. Then the next day try similar distance in the other direction, then expand the distance a bit, but always measure the time or distance so that I could get back well before dark. If I had a cell phone with me I might try to get to the highest point I could without leaving the road and try to get a signal.

MikeWaters · 12-11-2006, 03:28 PM

He told his wife he would go back if he didn't find the road, by 1pm.

Obviously, he did not return, and I don't think he found the road.

I am guessing that he didn't turn back, because either 1) he was overly confident or 2) it felt like certain death for his family if he did.

It's disappointing that he was not able to make a fire. I imagine that most of fuel was wet, but still...I was reading on one of the sites above...you get tree lichen and put it on your stomach to dry it. Good tinder to start a fire.

I think I will practice fire building. My asst. SM bought a magnesium/flint thing, and was unable to start a fire with it. I'll get my own and practice.

Jeff Lebowski · 12-11-2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's disappointing that he was not able to make a fire. I imagine that most of fuel was wet, but still...I was reading on one of the sites above...you get tree lichen and put it on your stomach to dry it. Good tinder to start a fire.

I think I will practice fire building. My asst. SM bought a magnesium/flint thing, and was unable to start a fire with it. I'll get my own and practice.

Primitive fire-starting is more difficult than you think.

Those flint and steel things are fun, but not practical. If you have the foresight to bring one of those, why not take a pocket full of regular lighters?

I haven't followed the Kim story very closely. Did they have a car? There were some folks a few years ago that got stuck in the snow in a rented jeep in southern Utah and froze to death after a week or so. Seems to me that they could have drained a little gas from the tank and used the cig lighter or something to ignite it.

MikeWaters · 12-11-2006, 03:47 PM

light the car on fire? bad idea. the car is the only shelter that was keeping them warm.

they did burn the tires however.

Jeff Lebowski · 12-11-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

light the car on fire? bad idea. the car is the only shelter that was keeping them warm.

they did burn the tires however.

No, not the car. Firewood.

hyrum · 12-11-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

No, not the car. Firewood.

Maybe a hand axe or saw would have been the most helpful thing. Maybe a knife with a serrated blade??

Not sure if they tossed branches or bark on the tire fire, but to get something to burn for several hours you'd need some good diameter limbs. The snow would have limited their access to fallen limbs, but there must have been low limbs to cut and dry with the tire fuel.

MikeWaters · 12-11-2006, 05:19 PM

I was reading that serration is a bad idea. Too hard to sharpen. People with these mora knives say they can be used to fell trees. Drive the knife in tip first (hit it with a log). Then hit it back and forth with log. Once in to hilt, you can stand on it. I'm going to get one.

If I lived in a colder area, I would always keep a wool blanket, candle, fire-starting supplies in my car. OnStar wouldn't be a bad idea either. Or a personal beacon device, but that may be overkill.

Quisqueyano · 12-11-2006, 07:40 PM

I have one of those magnesium shaving thigs. I can't for the life of me get it to work.
Discovery used to have a series called "Survivor Man". Great show. They have one now called "Man VS. Wild". I like that too. But Survivior man seemed to focus on N. American tactics. The simplest isdea from that may have saved these peoples lives (the guys in the jeep as well as Mr. Kim). They should have drained some gas from the car and started burning the car tires. They burn forever and can be seen from space. 4 tires plus a spair would have burned for a long time.

BigFatMeanie · 12-11-2006, 08:43 PM

Flints and magnesium shavings and those types of things have always been unreliable in my experience. The most reliable thing I've ever used is a 9-volt battery and fine steel wool. Just keep them in separate plastic baggies or separate pockets. A 9-volt battery and steel wool is small, light, and works even if the steel wool gets wet.

Someone else made the comment that if you had the foresight to take a flint (or a 9-volt battery and steel wool) then why not just take a lighter? The problem with lighters is that they are too unreliable and they are hard to operate if your fingers/hands are frozen or if the liquid propellant freezes. Same goes for matches. Matches can get wet, they are hard to light if your fingers/hands are frozen, they can blow out easily in wind.

A 9-volt battery and steel wool will instantaneously start a fire. Simply shove the battery terminals into the fine steel wool. You could start a fire if your hands were frozen stumps. You could start a fire with your feet if you had to. You could start a fire with just your mouth holding the battery if you had neither hands nor feet.

At your next scout meeting, have a fire-starting contest. Challenge your boys to start a fire with any means they can think of except using liquid propellants (which are heavy, dangerous, and harder to carry). Time their efforts with matches, flints, magnesium shavings, even road flares. Then time it with a 9-volt battery and steel wool.

12-11-2006, 02:30 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Bushcraft No this does not refer to Pres. Bush's seeming ability to make people like Snipe think he is God... Rather it refers to a sort of outdoors survivalism. With Mr. Kim's death, it has been on my mind. How would I have tried to survive? Last night I was reading up on what sort of knife to buy. I came across some stuff about the Mora knife and that led to stuff about a couple of bushcraft teachers/authors. One is Mors Kochanski. I happened on a few documents and interviews about him. And then there is a guy named Ray Mears, out of the UK. He's done books and TV shows. He doesnt' preach mere survival. He teaches about outdoor appreciation and respect for indigenous cultures, etc. There is a vast amount of knowledge re: survival that is slipping away. I think it would be a fun hobby to become more knowledgeable. For example, what plants are edible, how to chop down small trees with a Mora knife. Mutiple fire building methods. One thing Kochanski would do in his classes is have his students dip their feet in an icy stream. Wearing wool socks, there feet quickly dry and warm as they walk sans-shoes across the snow and ice. If they keep their shoe on, their feet will freeze. Anyway, I will soon learn more. My scouts didn't know they have a budding Rambo on their hands.

12-11-2006, 03:21 PM	#2
hyrum Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 860	survival for Mr. Kim A colleague told me that he saw a survival expert comment on a news show about James Kim. His opinion was that a human can live for a week or more without food, a few days without water, and maybe a day without shelter in those conditions. Kim's mistake then was that he walked away from his shelter. Someone else said that hold told his wife he thought they were only 4-5 miles from the nearest town/inhabited place, but in reality they were about 15 miles away. Personally I would have scouted out the territory by walking during the warmest part of the day on the road mile or so, then go back. Then the next day try similar distance in the other direction, then expand the distance a bit, but always measure the time or distance so that I could get back well before dark. If I had a cell phone with me I might try to get to the highest point I could without leaving the road and try to get a signal.

12-11-2006, 07:40 PM	#9
Quisqueyano Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lehi Utah Posts: 320	Fire starting in emergencies I have one of those magnesium shaving thigs. I can't for the life of me get it to work. Discovery used to have a series called "Survivor Man". Great show. They have one now called "Man VS. Wild". I like that too. But Survivior man seemed to focus on N. American tactics. The simplest isdea from that may have saved these peoples lives (the guys in the jeep as well as Mr. Kim). They should have drained some gas from the car and started burning the car tires. They burn forever and can be seen from space. 4 tires plus a spair would have burned for a long time.

12-11-2006, 03:28 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	He told his wife he would go back if he didn't find the road, by 1pm. Obviously, he did not return, and I don't think he found the road. I am guessing that he didn't turn back, because either 1) he was overly confident or 2) it felt like certain death for his family if he did. It's disappointing that he was not able to make a fire. I imagine that most of fuel was wet, but still...I was reading on one of the sites above...you get tree lichen and put it on your stomach to dry it. Good tinder to start a fire. I think I will practice fire building. My asst. SM bought a magnesium/flint thing, and was unable to start a fire with it. I'll get my own and practice.

12-11-2006, 03:47 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	light the car on fire? bad idea. the car is the only shelter that was keeping them warm. they did burn the tires however.

12-11-2006, 05:19 PM	#8
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I was reading that serration is a bad idea. Too hard to sharpen. People with these mora knives say they can be used to fell trees. Drive the knife in tip first (hit it with a log). Then hit it back and forth with log. Once in to hilt, you can stand on it. I'm going to get one. If I lived in a colder area, I would always keep a wool blanket, candle, fire-starting supplies in my car. OnStar wouldn't be a bad idea either. Or a personal beacon device, but that may be overkill.

12-11-2006, 08:43 PM	#10
BigFatMeanie Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: South Jordan Posts: 1,725	Flints and magnesium shavings and those types of things have always been unreliable in my experience. The most reliable thing I've ever used is a 9-volt battery and fine steel wool. Just keep them in separate plastic baggies or separate pockets. A 9-volt battery and steel wool is small, light, and works even if the steel wool gets wet. Someone else made the comment that if you had the foresight to take a flint (or a 9-volt battery and steel wool) then why not just take a lighter? The problem with lighters is that they are too unreliable and they are hard to operate if your fingers/hands are frozen or if the liquid propellant freezes. Same goes for matches. Matches can get wet, they are hard to light if your fingers/hands are frozen, they can blow out easily in wind. A 9-volt battery and steel wool will instantaneously start a fire. Simply shove the battery terminals into the fine steel wool. You could start a fire if your hands were frozen stumps. You could start a fire with your feet if you had to. You could start a fire with just your mouth holding the battery if you had neither hands nor feet. At your next scout meeting, have a fire-starting contest. Challenge your boys to start a fire with any means they can think of except using liquid propellants (which are heavy, dangerous, and harder to carry). Time their efforts with matches, flints, magnesium shavings, even road flares. Then time it with a 9-volt battery and steel wool.