The Book of Judas

[DrumNFeather]

Fusnik 1 Johnny Lingo 0

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Anyone else think this new find is fascinating?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/sc...rtner=homepage

This is a fascinating historical artifact, but not because it contains relaible information. It is 1,700 years old, and scholars believe it was lifted from another document in the prior century, which means someone wrote its contents two hundred years after Christ's death, give or take. By the way, the other "Gospels" suffer similar chain of custody problems, not to mention that you see in them influences everywhere in the contemporary literature including the Old Testament and culture. This new discovery only highlights something that the hateful Southern Baptists should think about as they generate their next anti-Mormon screed--that the Bible (Old and New Testamemnts) is of course as shot through with credibility and logic gaps as any Mormon scripture.

[SeattleUte]

Some highlights from the article:

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton who specializes in studies of the Gnostics, said in a statement, "These discoveries are exploding the myth of a monolithic religion, and demonstrating how diverse — and fascinating — the early Christian movement really was."

As the findings have trickled down to churches and universities, they have produced a new generation of Christians who now regard the Bible not as the literal word of God, but as a product of historical and political forces that determined which texts should be included in the canon, and which edited out.

For that reason, the discoveries have proved deeply troubling for many believers. The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas Iscariot not as a betrayer of Jesus, but as his most favored disciple and willing collaborator.

"You can see how early Christians could say, if Jesus's death was all part of God's plan, then Judas's betrayal was part of God's plan," said Ms. King, the author of several books on Gnostic texts. "So what does that make Judas? Is he the betrayer, or the facilitator of salvation, the guy who makes the crucifixion possible?"

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

"You can see how early Christians could say, if Jesus's death was all part of God's plan, then Judas's betrayal was part of God's plan," said Ms. King, the author of several books on Gnostic texts. "So what does that make Judas? Is he the betrayer, or the facilitator of salvation, the guy who makes the crucifixion possible?"

This is exactly the point, isn't it? I am not enough of a scriptorian to know the answer, but I have always pondered whether Judas' act of betrayal wasn't as necessary to the plan as Adam's act of disobedience. I understand what the gospels say, and the authorities seem pretty clear, but someone had to bring about the circumstances of the cricufixion. Admittedly they might have occurred otherwise, but wasn't this exactly what was supposed to happen, based on prophecy, etc?

To make clear, I really don't know, but it is an interesting question.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Robin

Of course you know the text can not be true, since:

1. For Jesus to suggest to Judas that he sell him down the river would be like hiring a hitman to kill yourself... a form of suicide.

2. Modern LDS prophets have made it pretty clear that Judas was a son of perdition, and NOT a cohort.

Lucky for you, you can ignore this apocryphal b.s. You have the direct line! Unless something is authenticating the historical nature of the BOM, or the Pearl of Great Price, you might as well ignore it like Bill_at_Kubla_Khan.

Harold Bloom has come up with what is for me the most credible explanation of Judus Iscariot: Judus Iscariot was deliberately drawn by the authors of the New Testament to be an anti-Semitic charicature of a Jew. Even his name means Jew. He does not appear in the oldest known Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, which seemingly was written by a Jew for Jews. (Really all the authors are anonymous.) Later Luke and Matthew wrote for Romans; hence sympathetic portrayals of Pilat and vicious characatures of Jewish elite and the creation of Judus Iscariot.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by creekster

This is exactly the point, isn't it? I am not enough of a scriptorian to know the answer, but I have always pondered whether Judas' act of betrayal wasn't as necessary to the plan as Adam's act of disobedience. I understand what the gospels say, and the authorities seem pretty clear, but someone had to bring about the circumstances of the cricufixion. Admittedly they might have occurred otherwise, but wasn't this exactly what was supposed to happen, based on prophecy, etc?

To make clear, I really don't know, but it is an interesting question.

Yes, this is why I find it fascinating as well. I've wondered these things about Adam, Joseph's brothers, Judas etc... It's fun to think about.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Keep it up, fus. It's fun proving you an idiot. And to preempt your next argument, Elder Talmage was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

I'm not disagreeing with Talmage but I will disagree with your standard of truth here. If we want to say that anything published by an apostle must be doctrinal truth then such a standard will not hold up to history. Two quick examples are McConkie's 1,076 errors in his original edition of Mormon Doctrine (that number coming from a committee of apostles) and the "man will never travel into outer space" piece written in (I believe) Answers to Gospel Questions by Joseph Fielding Smith.

[JohnnyLingo]

While I do not believe that members of the 12 are infalliable, I do not believe that fusnik is qualified to tell me what is true and what is not. If I have to decide between James Talmage and fusnik e. pimp for gospel knowledge, I choose Talmage every time. Same goes for anyone I met online.

No offense, SteelBlue.

[MikeWaters]

I think there needs to be a new addendum to the Bible. "Judas Strikes Back."

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

While I do not believe that members of the 12 are infalliable, I do not believe that fusnik is qualified to tell me what is true and what is not. If I have to decide between James Talmage and fusnik e. pimp for gospel knowledge, I choose Talmage every time. Same goes for anyone I met online.

No offense, SteelBlue.

this has nothing to do with talmage, it has everything to do with robins assertion. no where did i say that an lds apostle did not claim judas was a son of perdition, i dispelled the idea that many prophets, made it clear that he was a son of perdition....

seriously dude your stubborness has led you to mass levels of ignorance on so many levels....