Stake Conf. Topic: Sexaul Intimacy

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by Tex

You are aware of the doctrine about everyone having the opportunity who wants it, right?

And you do realize too that getting married is not having your ticket punched?

LOL I do realize that. I am reminded all the time by being human and tempted, but I appreciate you pointing it out. I wasn't trying to say that I am going there based solely on the fact that I had a temple marriage. I know it takes like following the commandments and stuff too right?

And who wouldn't want the opportunity, I mean this lady rocks, I am sure she wants to get married. So what does that mean for her after this life? Cuz speaking plainly I doubt she got the calling she has now by making the same irresponsible mistakes I have.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Gidget

LOL I do realize that. I am reminded all the time by being human and tempted, but I appreciate you pointing it out. I wasn't trying to say that I am going there based solely on the fact that I had a temple marriage. I know it takes like following the commandments and stuff too right?

And who wouldn't want the opportunity, I mean this lady rocks, I am sure she wants to get married. So what does that mean for her after this life? Cuz speaking plainly I doubt she got the calling she has now by making the same irresponsible mistakes I have.

I don't know what it means specifically for her, but I know that generally speaking, no person will be denied an opportunity for exaltation. That goes for a woman who remains single her entire life through no fault of her own, as much as it means a person in some remote area who never hears the gospel.

That is actually one of the most galling differences to me between LDS and some other Christian faiths. I really have a hard time accepting the beliefs that some have, that those who never hear of Christ are inevitably damned forever.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

of course not.

you have to keep your man satisfied, too.

"be nice and you will get a lot more action".

They YW age group that really concern me are the un-married 18-25year olds. I could be off on my stats, but I believe that is where the Church loses many to inactivity. For the most part, they have completed their education, many don't like the "meat market" singles wards, do not fit in the typical family wards, and they are under a lot of pressure to get married. Many decide that since they have not succeeded in finding their LDS mate, they begin to look elsewhere. Some like Sis. Thompson have managed to remain active despite being single and facing the emphasis our culture places on marriage, but, the wards' rolls are filled with YW that left the Church during the that time period. I believe we do a pretty good job with the youth, it is the 18-25 year olds where we are missing the mark.

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by Tex

That is actually one of the most galling differences to me between LDS and some other Christian faiths. I really have a hard time accepting the beliefs that some have, that those who never hear of Christ are inevitably damned forever.

Agreed. This is was a positive point for me when I was taking the discussions 8 years ago.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

"be nice and you will get a lot more action".

They YW age group that really concern me are the un-married 18-25year olds. I could be off on my stats, but I believe that is where the Church loses many to inactivity. For the most part, they have completed their education, many don't like the "meat market" singles wards, do not fit in the typical family wards, and they are under a lot of pressure to get married. Many decide that since they have not succeeded in finding their LDS mate, they begin to look elsewhere. Some like Sis. Thompson have managed to remain active despite being single and facing the emphasis our culture places on marriage, but, the wards' rolls are filled with YW that left the Church during the that time period. I believe we do a pretty good job with the youth, it is the 18-25 year olds where we are missing the mark.

Agree 100%

[Bruincoug]

"You engaged in absurd reductionism when you tied young women's sex appeal to their salvation, and then suggested that was the teaching of the church."

i did no such thing. what is "absurd reductionism" -- is that the same as reduction to absurdity? if you want to argue, at least bother reading and understanding what i say before attempting to disagree with it. then, before you respond, put my comments in context and ask yourself whether your beef is with some ancillary or inconsequential aspect of my point-- or whether it goes to heart of it.


"In your words, the church "adds pressure to be attractive" and "damns" other achievements by turning temple marriage into a "sweepstakes" where the losers question their standing in God's eyes."

wow. haha. reading this, i realized you simply did not comprehend much of what i (or anyone else) has said. i did not say that the Church (qua institution?) "damns" anything, did I? Where?

first, your reading comprehension has been awful so far. are you intentionally trolling? i'm not sure i should even be responding to this garbage.

second, your style of argument is obnoxious: you are seriously (and intentionally?) distorting others' words.

what exactly did I turn into a sweepstakes? I did not create temple marriage. nor have I turned it into anything. are you insinuating that it is inappropriate to say that a temple marriage is something valuable? prized? sought after? or to poetically suggest that the experience of courting / dating is akin to competition?

if i had said "brass ring" would you assail me for comparing a holy institution to a pagan ritual? just give up. i often call temple marriage the brass ring of YSA wards -- am i trivializing it? sinning by doing so? judge me!!!!

most importantly, you probably do not have many single LDS women friends (who are willing to open up to you anyway) if you are not aware of the heartache and anxiety that many have over whether they will ever marry in this life.

have you never heard a one wonder why she (a) has been denied the blessing of a temple marriage / worthy man and/or (b) question it is her somehow her fault (c) wonder whether she will have children -- and if not, why not?

your attack is ridiculous and embarassing, pal.

[Bruincoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

I don't know if she intended

In your words . . .

I suppose, you should use my words -- rather than your own -- for the rest of that sentence.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Bruincoug

your attack is ridiculous and embarassing, pal.

Let me see if I can dial it down a notch.

The implication of your post is: in order to be saved, a woman has to be sexy and alluring so as to "catch that man" and get herself sealed. Otherwise she's screwed. No man? ... No marriage, no kids, no motherhood ... no salvation.

I find that to be a fairly warped view of the gospel. But feel free to clarify.

PS. One question: I'm not sure what you mean by "attractiveness be damned" achievements--are you saying only ugly women achieve outside the home?

[Bruincoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Let me see if I can dial it down a notch.

The implication of your post is: in order to be saved, a woman has to be sexy and alluring so as to "catch that man" and get herself sealed. Otherwise she's screwed. No man? ... No marriage, no kids, no motherhood ... no salvation.

I find that to be a fairly warped view of the gospel. But feel free to clarify.

PS. One question: I'm not sure what you mean by "attractiveness be damned" achievements--are you saying only ugly women achieve outside the home?

thanks for dialing it down. makes it easy for me to point out what you misunderstand:

1. the implication of my point is not at all what you say. i'm not sure how in the world anyone would jump to that conclusion.

let me walk you through it:
2. my post says:
unfortunately, [agreeing with others] in our society it is easy for women to base their self-esteem solely on their ability to attract men. (This is NOT because our Church has any official teaching that this should be the case)
in our church, there is an unfortunate mirror scenario, wherein some women base their entire self-esteem solely on their ability to find (or be found by) and attract a worthy husband, and proceed to have children. some people call this perfect mormon syndrome -- when you are not the perfect husband/wife/mother/father, you suffer from low self-esteem. for those who desperately want to be mothers/wives and believe it is the noblest goal, not achieving that goal may feel like a huge failure (even though it may not reflect any fault of the woman in question.)
(this again is NOT because the Church teaches that women are only important as mothers/wives ("1. LDS girls might understand that they are daughters of God, have unique self-worth etc., BUT") indeed, we emphasize that women are all daughters of God, the love He has for them, etc. our church, laudably points out we are all treasured by our Heavenly Father and for numerous other reasons should understand how truly beautiful and precious we are to Him).

then, i point out that, many LDS women and girls (by not being taught correctly or by not hearing entire message of the restored gospel) may confuse the noble and important roles of 1) being married and 2) being mothers that we push them toward as being the ONLY noble or important roles around which they can base their self-worth. (nowhere, of course does the Church teach that women SHOULD despair or base self-worth only around marriage/children/family. But not achieving those goals can be tough, especially if you believe that they are the only important things in life -- and many Mormons will express similar ideas about how important such things are.)

a woman who bases her entire self-worth around marriage/motherhood/family may unfortunately also despair over trivial flaws or a perceived lack of attractivness when she is 25, 30, 45, etc and still not married believing that such outward things have hurt her ability to reach those goals. I have numerous YSA friends who have expressed these feelings.

unfortunately, Mormon culture (by which i mean the way we act and talk and interact) rather than doctrine (by which i mean, official teachings of the Church), can negatively influence people's lives: it's important to keep this in mind and attempt to harmonize our culture with our divine commission.

that's my point.

as to your second questions: in context, ". . . achieve in ways where attractiveness be damned" very clearly means: achieve in spheres where one's physical attractiveness is irrelevant (in medicine, law, academics, business, art, music -- or other areas where not having a pretty face is less important than the dating game)

next time, try not to think of the worse possible thing i might have meant and then accuse me of saying it. be more generous and ask yourself what's the best way i could have meant it. less stress for everbody.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Speaking as one who's single and dated LDS and Non-LDS alike...I can tell you that the attitudes and the guilt syndrome ingrained....that there are worlds of difference.

A lot of the Non-LDS gals I've been out with seem to have much healthier attitudes towards sex in general....well so far as I've noticed anyway.