"I know this church is true"

[Tex]

What is the difference between these two scriptures (in the context of this thread), and what percentage of the people do you think fall under each?

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/46

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by K-dog

Try the 45+ singles ward in the Avenues. When it ended I was crying in the fetal position.

LOL...now THAT would be entertainment.

Course we have a number of those singles in that age bracket still going to our ward. I feel bad for them and most of the girls in the ward are very creeped out by them.

[Gifted Fish]

Originally Posted by Tex

What is the difference between these two scriptures (in the context of this thread), and what percentage of the people do you think fall under each?

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/46

I suspect the difference between "knowledge" and "belief" is simply an assessment of various grades of belief. Did Joseph "know" he saw God and Jesus or did he "believe" he did? We all probably say he knew because of sensory perception with his eyes and ears, but a spiritual manifestation would typically be called a belief by most absent some extraordinary experience.

Having listened to two sides of a lawsuit each claim that they "know" what they saw or what was said really amounts to nothing more than an expression of their belief in what they saw/heard after the passage of time.

I like William James' discussion of the topic in "The Varieties of Religious Experience." He explains much more eloquently than I ever could the difference/similarity between these methods of perception.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I don't consider myself an intellectual. I like to think, but when it comes right down to it, I don't like to think about things just for the sake of thinking.

As used by Rocky, intellectual is nothing more than a pejorative term for someone he disagrees with.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Gifted Fish

I suspect the difference between "knowledge" and "belief" is simply an assessment of various grades of belief. Did Joseph "know" he saw God and Jesus or did he "believe" he did? We all probably say he knew because of sensory perception with his eyes and ears, but a spiritual manifestation would typically be called a belief by most absent some extraordinary experience.

Having listened to two sides of a lawsuit each claim that they "know" what they saw or what was said really amounts to nothing more than an expression of their belief in what they saw/heard after the passage of time.

I like William James' discussion of the topic in "The Varieties of Religious Experience." He explains much more eloquently than I ever could the difference/similarity between these methods of perception.

You should introduce yourself in the introductions section.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

As used by Rocky, intellectual is nothing more than a pejorative term for someone he disagrees with.

And in that context, it's probably a pretty descriptive term.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Gifted Fish

I suspect the difference between "knowledge" and "belief" is simply an assessment of various grades of belief. Did Joseph "know" he saw God and Jesus or did he "believe" he did? We all probably say he knew because of sensory perception with his eyes and ears, but a spiritual manifestation would typically be called a belief by most absent some extraordinary experience.

Having listened to two sides of a lawsuit each claim that they "know" what they saw or what was said really amounts to nothing more than an expression of their belief in what they saw/heard after the passage of time.

So fundamentally you think there's no big difference between the two?

Originally Posted by Tex

What is the difference between these two scriptures (in the context of this thread), and what percentage of the people do you think fall under each?

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/46

Anyone else?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

So fundamentally you think there's no big difference between the two?



Anyone else?

For some reason, I read that second verse and think of John 17. That seems to me that belief is a preliminary step, and that we are expected to eventually come to knowledge.

I think the problem is what we consider "knowledge." If I asked if any of you know when the battle of Cannae took place, you would all respond "Why, 216 BC, of course." But how many of you KNOW that the battle of Cannae took place in 216? None of you saw it; if you had seen it, there are good odds you wouldn't have recognized it, and you CERTAINLY wouldn't have had any means of discerning, amidst the ruckus, that Jesus would be born 216 years later. If, in fact, you knew that the battle of Cannae took place in 216, it is because you have sufficient evidence for so believing-- which, in this case, is little more than what you've read in a few history books.

When I say that I know the Book of Mormon is true, or that Jesus Christ is the son of God, et cetera, it is because I've come across enough evidence to so convince me that it is the case. Others may not accept as persuasive what experiences I've had; so be it.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I'll certainly never accuse you of being overly dramatic and straining at gnats.

Nit picking while claiming the result of emotional damage has become a sport. I think what you're explaining is simply nothing more than just a pet peeve and we all have em'.

While I agree that testimony meetings can be laborious to sit through, I submit to you that if you're ever feeling alienated....come to a 31+ Singles Ward Testimony meeting.

You will feel like you should've been charged admission afterwards due to the entertainment value.

Anyone who doubts this is free to join me on any of those days.

Things haven't changed I guess since I attended a singles ward 20 some years ago. My good friend was second counselor in the Bishopric and he told me they dreaded the thought of having to get up and ask someone to stop.

They came very close with one girl in particular. I guarantee you she would have been stopped in a married ward.

[Sassy in RS]

I believe in Christ.

We usually play the song much too slowly, but the sentiment is lovely.