Oil in America

[Solon]

Originally Posted by splitbamboo

I saw a 1910-1920-ish photo of my town and surrounding countryside (suburban Portland). The vegetation was wiped clean. I am convinced there are more trees now (at least in the US) than in the early part of the twentieth century.

This happened in my neck of the woods too. In the late 19th / early 20th century, almost every tree in the county was cut down to fuel the pig iron furnaces. The state government has since created a sizable amount of state forest lands, but it's weird to see all the trees pretty much the exact same size and age for miles and miles.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Tex

I guess you ignored the rest of my post where I explained how it would.

Domestic oil is not going to be cheaper than foreign because American oil companies are still going to take advantage of the world price when they sell it. Read the article below and tell me why it's wrong. I think its a pretty strong economic argument. Energy independence is great political rhetoric but that's all it's worth.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2796

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BlueK

Domestic oil is not going to be cheaper than foreign because American oil companies are still going to take advantage of the world price when they sell it. Read the article below and tell me why it's wrong. I think its a pretty strong economic argument. Energy independence is great political rhetoric but that's all it's worth.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=2796

Let's don't conflate energy independence (or at least reduced dependence) with energy prices.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Let's don't conflate energy independence (or at least reduced dependence) with energy prices.

What are the goals of energy independence? Politicians just throw that out there and really don't care what it means as long as it gets them positive reactions from voters. The only way to make the middle east less relevant is to stop or reduce oil consumption, no matter where it comes from.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BlueK

What are the goals of energy independence? Politicians just throw that out there and really don't care what it means as long as it gets them positive reactions from voters. The only way to make the middle east less relevant is to stop or reduce oil consumption, no matter where it comes from.

The goal of reduced energy dependence is to reduce how much we can be held hostage by rogue nations that we are forced to deal with (sometimes on an uncomfortably cozy basis) in order to meet our supply needs. I'd have to think the US becoming a bigger producer would seriously dampen market volatility because we don't have to worry about Obama/McCain going cuckoo like Chavez or Ahmadinejad.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The goal of reduced energy dependence is to reduce how much we can be held hostage by rogue nations that we are forced to deal with (sometimes on an uncomfortably cozy basis) in order to meet our supply needs. I'd have to think the US becoming a bigger producer would seriously dampen market volatility because we don't have to worry about Obama/McCain going cuckoo like Chavez or Ahmadinejad.

And they will still be able to do that regardless of where we get our oil from as long as China, India, Europe, or someone buys it.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BlueK

And they will still be able to do that regardless of where we get our oil from as long as China, India, Europe, or someone buys it.

If the US increases its production, it provides the world with another supplier alternative and reduces the leverage they have due to the decrease in dependence upon Venezuela/Japan/Libya/Nigeria/Iraq.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

If the US increases its production, it provides the world with another supplier alternative and reduces the leverage they have due to the decrease in dependence upon Venezuela/Japan/Libya/Nigeria/Iraq.

sure, go ahead and increase production. It can't be increased enough to make the middle east irrelevant however. Personally I'd love to get a fuel cell car as soon as it becomes practical. Alternative sources of energy are the only way to get the middle east out of the picture. But who knows how long before the technology improves enough to allow that. Just pumping more from somewhere else will never be enough.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BlueK

sure, go ahead and increase production. It can't be increased enough to make the middle east irrelevant however. Personally I'd love to get a fuel cell car as soon as it becomes practical.

And that's why I used "reduces" instead of "eliminates". Are solutions only useful if they are complete solutions instead of partial ones?

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

And that's why I used "reduces" instead of "eliminates". Are solutions only useful if they are complete solutions instead of partial ones?

It's not a solution if the net result is basically zero, which is what it will be.